The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 09:00pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,998
30-Second Time-Out

NFHS Rules:

Rule 5, Section 12, Article 5: "Players shall remain standing within the confines of the bench area during a 30-second time-out".

Rule 10, Section 4, Article 4c: "Bench personnel shall not stand in the team bench area and must remain seated except during a charged time-out, as in 5-12-5,".

Rule 4, Section 34, Article 1: "A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission".

During a thirty-second time out, are bench personnel allowed to stand up during the charged time out, or are only the five players allowed to stand up ?

I think that bench personnel are allowed to stand. Does anyone have any additional Rule Book, Case Book, Exam, or Refresher Exam citations to support my case or to support the answer that they are not allowed to stand up ?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:57am.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 09:38pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Rule 5-12-5..."Players shall remain standing during the confines of the bench area during a 30-second time-out".

Rule 4-34-1..."A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission".

Is this an intermission? Nope.
Are "bench personnel" also "players"? Nope, rule 4-34-2 separately defines bench personnel.

Ergo, bench personnel sits and players must stand during a 30-second TO.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 10:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Send a message via AIM to Back In The Saddle Send a message via MSN to Back In The Saddle Send a message via Yahoo to Back In The Saddle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Rule 5-12-5..."Players shall remain standing during the confines of the bench area during a 30-second time-out".

Rule 4-34-1..."A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission".

Is this an intermission? Nope.
Are "bench personnel" also "players"? Nope, rule 4-34-2 separately defines bench personnel.

Ergo, bench personnel sits and players must stand during a 30-second TO.
I guess I don't understand your answer or reasoning because as I read it, 10-4-4c clearly allows bench personnel to stand during a charged time out.

Bench personnel shall not:
ART. 4 . . . Stand in the team bench area while the clock is running or is stopped, and must remain seated, except:
c. During a charged time-out, as in 5-12-5, or the intermission between quarters and extra periods.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 03:20am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Rule 5-12-5..."Players shall remain standing during the confines of the bench area during a 30-second time-out".

Rule 4-34-1..."A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time, except intermission".

Is this an intermission? Nope.
Are "bench personnel" also "players"? Nope, rule 4-34-2 separately defines bench personnel.

Ergo, bench personnel sits and players must stand during a 30-second TO.
Your logic doesn't work. The rules you cited only specify who the players are and what the players are required to do. They don't give any indication about what non-players are permitted to do or restricted from doing. By your interpretation, the head coach would not be able to be in the huddle with the five players since he is not a player.

10-4-4c says all bench personnel can stand during a timeout....without reference to the length of the timeout.

All team members may participate in any timeout.

Additionally, the coach may be substituing someone in and is not required to have them report until the 10 second reamining point. They do not become a player until they are brought into the game by the official. Are they not permitted in the huddle?

The purpose of having the players stand is not to seperate them from the rest of the team but to facilitate getting them back on the floor more quickly so that play can be resumed. Having the bench personnel standing with them will have no effect whatsoever on this goal. If the bench personnel can't get 5-10 feet to their chair before the players get to the throwin spot, they wouldn't even be on the team.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 03:52am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Well, Camron, rule 5-12-5 says "players shall remain standing...during a 30-second time-out".

Are you prepared to call a technical foul on any member of the bench personnel that doesn't stand? Or do you simply tell them all that they must stand? And how can bench personnel remain standing if they weren't allowed to be standing before the 30-second TO was called?

Somehow, I don't think that your logic is working very well either.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 03:59am.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 10:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 1,955
[QUOTE=BillyMac]NFHS Rules:

During a thirty-second time out, are bench personnel allowed to stand up during the charged time out, or are only the five players allowed to stand up ?
_____________________

Instead of a rules reference, I'm going to refer to common sense -- which isn't nearly as common as it used to be. Don't overthink this one.The intent of this is to aviod delay in the teams coming out of a 30 second TO without delay. Some teams will try to drag this out, bring chairs on the courts, water, etc. The new clarified distinction between players and bench personnel does not infere that others than those on the floor at the time of the TO aren't allowed to participate in a TO huddle.
__________________
That's my whistle -- and I'm sticking to it!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 10:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, Camron, rule 5-12-5 says "players shall remain standing...during a 30-second time-out".

Are you prepared to call a technical foul on any member of the bench personnel that doesn't stand? Or do you simply tell them all that they must stand? And how can bench personnel remain standing if they weren't allowed to be standing before the 30-second TO was called?

Somehow, I don't think that your logic is working very well either.
But Woddy, it doesn't say anything about what bench personnel are required, allowed, or forbidden to do. I think that's Camron's point. I would think that since there is a rule that specifically allows bench personnel to stand during a "charged time out", that they could stand. Why would that not be the case?
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 11:06am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,998
Citations Please ?

Official Forum members:

Please note the additional citation (thanks Jurassic Referee) and some added boldface edited to my original post.

Thanks for the opinions, including some common sense (thanks refnrev), but I would really like some additional citations to support either side, Rule Book, Case Book, Exam, or Refresher Exam. I need some strong support for one side or another by Monday, October 30, 2006, for a New Members Clinic.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 12:06pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Official Forum members:

Please note the additional citation (thanks Jurassic Referee) and some added boldface edited to my original post.

Thanks for the opinions, including some common sense (thanks refnrev), but I would really like some additional citations to support either side, Rule Book, Case Book, Exam, or Refresher Exam. I need some strong support for one side or another by Monday, October 30, 2006, for a New Members Clinic.
I'm with Cameron and Juulie here. The rules state that bench players may stand during a charged timeout. This is an allowance. The rules state that during a 30 second timeout, the players must remain standing. This is a restriction directly aimed at the 5 active players. It doesn't address the bench personnel, and the rule allowing the bench personnel to stand during a timeout doesn't say anything about being in effect for some timeouts and not others.

Let them stand.

Adam
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 12:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by refnrev
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
NFHS Rules:

During a thirty-second time out, are bench personnel allowed to stand up during the charged time out, or are only the five players allowed to stand up ?
_____________________

Instead of a rules reference, I'm going to refer to common sense -- which isn't nearly as common as it used to be. Don't overthink this one.The intent of this is to aviod delay in the teams coming out of a 30 second TO without delay. Some teams will try to drag this out, bring chairs on the courts, water, etc. The new clarified distinction between players and bench personnel does not infere that others than those on the floor at the time of the TO aren't allowed to participate in a TO huddle.
Sorry to rain on your parade ref, but apparently you don't read the obituary section of your newspaper often enough. This one recently ran:

OBITUARY: THE SAD PASSING OF COMMON SENSE

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend,Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long Ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always fair, and Maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouth wash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Panadol, sun lotion or a sticky plaster to a student; but, could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
Common sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar can sue you for assault. Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended - his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

So, no more common sense. Back to the rule book.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 12:37pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,307
This was quite funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes
Sorry to rain on your parade ref, but apparently you don't read the obituary section of your newspaper often enough. This one recently ran:

OBITUARY: THE SAD PASSING OF COMMON SENSE
And some wonder why they are getting passed up by other officials or never get a shot at the better games. Why do we even care what the bench personnel do in this situation?

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 12:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, Camron, rule 5-12-5 says "players shall remain standing...during a 30-second time-out".

Are you prepared to call a technical foul on any member of the bench personnel that doesn't stand? Or do you simply tell them all that they must stand? And how can bench personnel remain standing if they weren't allowed to be standing before the 30-second TO was called?

Somehow, I don't think that your logic is working very well either.
No, again, it only refers to the players. The players must remain standing. It places no requirement on the other team members to either stand or not.

Additionally, there is NO penalty specified for the players not standing. If they choose to sit, what is the call. Nothing!
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com

Last edited by Camron Rust; Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:59pm.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 12:59pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,998
We Care

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
And some wonder why they are getting passed up by other officials or never get a shot at the better games. Why do we even care what the bench personnel do in this situation?

Peace
We, the members of our Board's Membership Committee, care because our Board has 35 candidates that need to pass the Exam to become new members of our Board. We also have 250 current members with 10% of their rating and ranking, which determines the level and number of games that they are assigned to, based on how well they do on the Refresher Exam.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 01:15pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
We, the members of our Board's Membership Committee, care because our Board has 35 candidates that need to pass the Exam to become new members of our Board. We also have 250 current members with 10% of their rating and ranking, which determines the level and number of games that they are assigned to, based on how well they do on the Refresher Exam.
You are missing the point. I am saying that even if you know what the bench personnel. Even if you know what the rulebook says, there is no way to enforce this other than "Guys you have to stand." Then in the real world, most competent officials do not care what the bench players are doing at all. Usually what happens is all players stand and this is never an issue. The reason the requirement is for players to stand is so there is not a long delay in getting the game started after the timeout. The NF has gone back and forth on whether standing is what is required or not.

Your answer is also the reason that these tests do more harm then good. Now you are going to have some young official that feels they have to go out of their way to enforce this and likely T someone up because of the way this test is worded. Every year I hear of an official that feels they need to take some extreme action based on something that was in the test. Because after all, most tests do not ask you how to actually enforce the rules, they only test whether you know what something means or the exact definition is. But that is a conversation for another day.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 28, 2006, 02:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,614
Players must stand and they must remian in the bench area, meaning they cannot wander down to the opponent's bench area.

Bench personnel can stand during any charged TO but are not required too.

The rules posted are the only references needed.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
the time displayed as post time is way off chuck chopper General / Off-Topic 2 Wed Mar 29, 2006 02:09pm
time expired/time outs cloverdale Basketball 14 Tue Feb 15, 2005 01:06am
Another long time listener, first time caller Fifth And Goal Basketball 11 Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:30am
Lag time when coach calls time out JeffTheRef Basketball 6 Mon Jan 12, 2004 03:43pm
When is it time to call Time / Dead ball? Deion Softball 1 Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:50am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:08am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1