The Superintendent Husband

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

That is a TOOL you have at your disposal, but just because it is there doesn't mean you need to whip it out every chance you get.

"Dont whip it out every chance you get"? Interesting. Does that mean that you're telling officials to sometimes ignore the POE's in the back of the rule book.....specifically POE 5A in this year's rule book? As also opposed to POE 1D on the same subject in last year's rulebook too?

"Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that apply to a head coach to arise in certain situations(time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement".

Or am I misinterpreting your meaning?

[Smitty]

Keep in mind this was an 8th grade game.

[bigdogrunnin]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

"Dont whip it out every chance you get"? Interesting. Does that mean that you're telling officials to sometimes ignore the POE's in the back of the rule book.....specifically POE 5A in this year's rule book? As also opposed to POE 1D on the same subject in last year's rulebook too?. . . Or am I misinterpreting your meaning?

Hi JR. The answer is NO. We are not ignoring the POE's in the Rule Book, and we are not playing down their importance either. We are using communication as a way to manage the situation and the game. In fact, I am one of the few officials in my Chapter and in our area that actually enforces the coaching box, and bench decorum. (Several of our more "esteemed" officials have gone as far as to chastise me for being such a stickler of the rules.)

In the example, the Asst. Coach was up coaching, for how long I don't know. If he was up for very long though, he definitely would be given a warning. How long is that? Depends on each individual official.

Personally, if I make my way up and down the floor (2-man) L to T, back to L, and I am on my way back to the T again and that Asst. Coach is still standing, I will say something to the Head Coach about their assistant(s). Next time the issue arises, they get the "T." I will admit though, that I am very hesitant to give out "T" in that situation. I would rather talk a coach out of a call like that. I know that it is the rule, but . . . that is just me.

TrueRookie . . . to answer about a coach's warning being placed in the book, the answer is no. I am aware of no specific rule which covers this issue. Some officials do this to keep a "written" log of the fact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

In the example, the Asst. Coach was up coaching, for how long I don't know. If he was up for very long though, he definitely would be given a warning. How long is that? Depends on each individual official.

That's the problem right there imo, Dog. Assistant coaches don't really know what to expect; there's no consistency coming from the officials. One game they might be able to wander the whole game; the next game they might get "T"d in a NY minute.

It's no different than some other calls that seem to turn up as POE's every year also. A prime example is the use of hands by a defender. Some officials call it by the POE; some officials wouldn't call it that way ever. Meanwhile, the defender doesn't know what he can get away with from game to game.

I certainly can see where rookie officials can get confused. They're getting different officials telling them to call it different ways. That's gotta be frustrating as hell.

[tomegun]

Wow, I read through this whole thread and got confused; I had to look back and see if Truerookie was the OP or Deecee was the OP.
If something is a POE every year there is a reason for it. Bigdog, apparently the Federation has determined it necessary to make this part of a POE. Communication must have failed. As stated earlier, there isn't consistency with how bench decorum is handled. Stopping the game is not the answer. I would just mention something to the head coach in passing and continue on my way. IMO, talking to an assistant coach is out of the question - for the most (99%) of the time I will talk to an assistant coach when they become a head coach. Oh, I will greet them before games and tell them where the ball will be put into play during a timeout. That is about it.
Wow, two (2) T's in four years. Did you say something like you tried to avoid one of those two? I find it hard to believe an official can officiate for four years and only come across two coaches that earn technical fouls. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying you are very fortunate...or you should have given out more T's.

[Ref_ Fred]

True rookie, You could have stopped the game at any point before they stole the ball. Why did you blow your whistle when they had a steal and possible break away? The next dead ball could have been a more appropriate time. Was the coach or the bench warned before that point. Just IMO. I'm sure there are different ways that it could have been handled..

[Junker]

My point of view, first of all, it's an 8th grade game. As long as the coach is up coaching and not being a butt, I don't have a huge problem with him. I would definitely NOT stop the game to sit him down unless I did it with a T. In this situation, I would take a second and tell the HC that I understand his assistant is coaching, but we need him on the bench. If he continues to get up, use the whistle and sit him down. Another thing to remember is that this is an 8th grade assistant. This is not the more professional coach you get at higher levels. He probably just got excited and wasn't thinking. Try to talk your way out of it if you can. Now, if an assistant at any level stands up to complain, whack them on site.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Junker

My point of view, first of all, it's an 8th grade game. As long as the coach is up coaching and not being a butt, I don't have a huge problem with him. I would definitely NOT stop the game to sit him down unless I did it with a T. In this situation, I would take a second and tell the HC that I understand his assistant is coaching, but we need him on the bench. If he continues to get up, use the whistle and sit him down. Another thing to remember is that this is an 8th grade assistant. This is not the more professional coach you get at higher levels. He probably just got excited and wasn't thinking. Try to talk your way out of it if you can. Now, if an assistant at any level stands up to complain, whack them on site.

It's an 8th grade game so you aren't going to enforce the bench rule, that is stupid. So when the next referee has him and he tells him to sit down he will say Junker let me stand up! It is against the rules in a 1st grade game and a HS game, enforce the rule.

[Junker]

It's not stupid and I didn't say don't enforce bench decorum. What I said was he stood to coach. Remind him to sit and move on. It's 8th grade and those players need to be coached. They are learning to play the game. If you read carefully I stated that if he's up complaining, take care of business immediately. To officiate well I think you have to develop game managment skills. If you are out there T'ing up an 8th grade assistant for trying to teach his players without asking him to sit first, you are going to be on that 8th grade game for quite some time.

[Chess Ref]

I like this thread. The issue of bench management. At Assoc. meetings we get the spiel from the Varsity refs about enforcing the "box". Lots of time spent on it. Us newer officials need to take charge of the benches and learn game management skills. Yada, yada,yada. I always hang round after my games and watch the Varsity guys. 85% have NO control of the box/benches. I have seen it all. Coaches rolling on the floor,on their knees begging for calls, running onn the court during a time out to yell at the ref. Basically everything up to and including doing a Linda Blair in public. And little if nothing is done about it. Rant off....
So last year I started working on communicating better and ENFORCING the box rules more consistently. Lo and behold my games were better played and my perception was they were more manageble. And ironically the better I communicated and ENFORCED the box rules the higher my ratings were. The varsity refs were like living vicariously through me.
***'t coaches get no leeway from me. I read somewher on this board they are to be considered the van driver. Seen and not heard.

I will admit that I Had 1 ***'t coach solve major head coach problem for me. The head coach was on the way out the door-1 T already and it was my early season generoisty that kept him from a 2nd. ***'t intervened asked me to give him 1 minute before allowing the coach to get himself Teed a 2 nd time. I did and didn't hear a peep from either one the rest of the night.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Junker

It's not stupid and I didn't say don't enforce bench decorum. What I said was he stood to coach. Remind him to sit and move on. It's 8th grade and those players need to be coached. They are learning to play the game. If you read carefully I stated that if he's up complaining, take care of business immediately. To officiate well I think you have to develop game managment skills. If you are out there T'ing up an 8th grade assistant for trying to teach his players without asking him to sit first, you are going to be on that 8th grade game for quite some time.

Junker this is what you wrote: My point of view, first of all, it's an 8th grade game. As long as the coach is up coaching and not being a butt, I don't have a huge problem with him.

It doesn't matter if he is coaching or complaining, he should be sitting.

[Junker]

Agreed, he needs to be on the bench. I must have been unclear. If he's up coaching his players, I'll ask the HC to get him on the bench. If he's up complaining, I'll sit him down with a T. Assistants are there to coach and as an esteemed forum member always states, we have to talk to Batman, but not Robin. My main point was that I would never stop the game to give a warning in a situation like this.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Junker this is what you wrote: My point of view, first of all, it's an 8th grade game. As long as the coach is up coaching and not being a butt, I don't have a huge problem with him.

It doesn't matter if he is coaching or complaining, he should be sitting.

If you read the rest of that same post, his position becomes more clear. By truncating his remarks, you've changed his meaning.

Junker, you were clear.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

TrueRookie . . . to answer about a coach's warning being placed in the book, the answer is no. I am aware of no specific rule which covers this issue. Some officials do this to keep a "written" log of the fact.

There are states, and local associations, that mandate that a warning be placed in the book when a coach is warned for any type of bench issue.

[tomegun]

Deecee,

That is good reading. I didn't have any popcorn, but I did have some pretzels! It seems like you are speaking with 4 years of experience and IMO that isn't enough (in this case). I don't know if you've been in enough situations.

Donnee Gray always says he can help an official reduce the amount of T's they give but he can't give someone the courage to call a T.
Keep in mind, there is a difference between communication and letting a coach get away with anything. The bottom line is it sounds like you are stroking players and coaches too much instead of breaking them off a T. But that is just my 2 cents.