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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 02, 2006, 01:50pm
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Goaltend??

Kid shoots layup, defender blocks shot on the way up, pins it between his hand and the backboard for a second, then lets it go...Goaltend or no??? Thanks in advance
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Old Mon Oct 02, 2006, 02:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidMadness
Kid shoots layup, defender blocks shot on the way up, pins it between his hand and the backboard for a second, then lets it go...Goaltend or no??? Thanks in advance
You answered your own question. You can't have goaltending if the ball is touched on the way up. Goaltending is touching a shot that has a chance to go in on the way down. Note that includes after the ball has hit the backboard too.
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Old Mon Oct 02, 2006, 02:03pm
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Thanks

Its what I thought, but wasn't sure about the pinning of the ball to the board.
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Old Mon Oct 02, 2006, 02:36pm
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JR has it right on. Madness may be thinking of the NBA when it comes to pinning or the backboard. By the way...think goaltending is one of the toughest calls in the game. So good for you for trying to get a clear understanding.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 06:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke
  • JR has it right on.
  • Madness may be thinking of the NBA when it comes to pinning or the backboard.
  • By the way...think goaltending is one of the toughest calls in the game.
I agree on all 3 counts. GT and BI happen so quickly that it can be tough to be sure of what you just saw. I also personally think that it can be very tough to judge whether the ball is in the cylinder or not on those close BI calls. GT is a little easier, but there's always that one where the shot is in the air forever and the guy swats it away and it feels like it should be a GT but you're not sure if it started coming down yet.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 08:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
GT is a little easier, but there's always that one where the shot is in the air forever and the guy swats it away and it feels like it should be a GT but you're not sure if it started coming down yet.
Physics. If it's more than half way to the basket, it's probably on the way down.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
Physics. If it's more than half way to the basket, it's probably on the way down.
Exactly my point, Jim. Feels like GT. It's probably GT. But are we sure that it has started down? That's a very tough judgment, IMHO.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
Physics. If it's more than half way to the basket, it's probably on the way down.
That's not necessarily true, especially if the ball is headed towards the backboard first.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
Physics. If it's more than half way to the basket, it's probably on the way down.
Actually, that's not really true. It would make sense logically, but in reality the physics are slightly different. There are many shots where after the shot is released, the speed of the ball slows down through the air, so that by the time it is at the apex and gravity takes over, it's moving slower than when it left the hand. This means the angle of the ball flight coming down is steeper than going up, which means the ball hits the apex somewhere around 2/3 of the way to the end, not just 1/2 way. This is espcially true on longer shots, maybe not as much on shorter shots. Think of the fly ball in baseball - if you watch the flight of the ball you'll see it at it's highest point much closer to the outfielder than just the halfway point.

I guess the point of my ramblings is don't rely on looking for the halfway point to determine goaltending. You still need to watch the ball flight to see if it's on the way down.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Actually, that's not really true. It would make sense logically, but in reality the physics are slightly different. There are many shots where after the shot is released, the speed of the ball slows down through the air, ....
Many shots? How about all shots? When is the ball NOT slowing down as it moves "through the air?" I'm assuming your talking about the horizontal vector.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:12am
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Originally Posted by rainmaker
Many shots? How about all shots? When is the ball NOT slowing down as it moves "through the air?" I'm assuming your talking about the horizontal vector.
Ok, in the very strictest sense, all shots slow down as they move through the air. But I was thinking in the case of a ball traveling a shorter distance, but at a similar rate of speed, the difference in speed is not as noticable, so perhaps the trajectory looks fairly even. Think of the hard-hit line drive in baseball, for example. Or a shot that has a high arc (a player close to the basket trying to get it over a taller defender) might have an even-looking arc.

My point was to not assume all shots are at on their way down at the halfway point, so we still need to actually watch the ball.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Ok, in the very strictest sense, all shots slow down as they move through the air. But I was thinking in the case of a ball traveling a shorter distance, but at a similar rate of speed, the difference in speed is not as noticable, so perhaps the trajectory looks fairly even. Think of the hard-hit line drive in baseball, for example. Or a shot that has a high arc (a player close to the basket trying to get it over a taller defender) might have an even-looking arc.

My point was to not assume all shots are at on their way down at the halfway point, so we still need to actually watch the ball.
I know. I was just being sassy. Perky. Feeling a little frisky since having a nice weekend. Actually have a little sense of humor. Don't burst my bubble. Jack...
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Actually, that's not really true. It would make sense logically, but in reality the physics are slightly different. There are many shots where after the shot is released, the speed of the ball slows down through the air, so that by the time it is at the apex and gravity takes over, it's moving slower than when it left the hand. This means the angle of the ball flight coming down is steeper than going up, which means the ball hits the apex somewhere around 2/3 of the way to the end, not just 1/2 way. This is espcially true on longer shots, maybe not as much on shorter shots. Think of the fly ball in baseball - if you watch the flight of the ball you'll see it at it's highest point much closer to the outfielder than just the halfway point.
And the weight of the ball can vary from 20 to 22 ounces too. Does that mean that the heavier ball will slow down quicker and the angle of the ball flight will be more too, Mr. Science?
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:32am
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Originally Posted by rainmaker
I was just being sassy. Perky. Feeling a little frisky since having a nice weekend.
Retreats make you sassy, perky and frisky?

Can I go to the next one? I haven't felt sassy, perky and frisky for the longest time.

Jim, however, is the very epi-tome of sassy, frisky and perky.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
And the weight of the ball can vary from 20 to 22 ounces too. Does that mean that the heavier ball will slow down quicker and the angle of the ball flight will be more too, Mr. Science?
Yep. You can move to the head of the class, Mr. Smartazz.

Btw, here's my picture:

Pretty frisky and perky-looking, wouldn't you say?
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