It's kind of my life. It's what I do for a living.

This year's NCAA Women's POE on rough play has (IMHO) excellent and clear guidelines for what is permissible in post play.

Whether you agree with these points or not, it's pretty clear how the NCAA wants this handled. It would be nice to see something from the NFHS as clearly written as this.

Jim these are, in fact, great guidelines and should and hopefully will filter down into the men's side of the game and down into the HS game. Things like this are needed for the sport. This gives the official a chance to judge and still apply the guidelines. Thanks for posting that.

The Men's game already has guidelines in place. They just do not use the same language or issue the same concerns. Just watch the Men's NCAA tape and that will be very clear after just a couple of slides what is expected. Hank Nichols went on a little rant at the end of the Men's Meeting in Chicago about rough play and the game getting too physical. There is also was a statement from the Coach's Association and the Tournament Committee (which both I believe are on the EOfficials web site in the Men's Basketball Section) that make it clear to clean up the game. I am just a lower level college official. The officials in the room were the "whose who" of officiating at the NCAA Men's Basketball Division 1 Level who was getting this message. Many of the people we talk about on this website were sitting around the room. So it was not like D2 and D3 officials were the people getting this message. Also you need to read the statement from the Men's Committee about how rough play has been an issue for the past 10 years straight.

Peace

Think so?

Jmo, Jim, but I think that the FED also has told us how they want this handled. They wrote these following guidelines very clearly, and then posted them on their website and printed them in the 2003-04 rule book.

<b>POE 2(C)- POST PLAY</b>
1: The offense can "shape up" to receive a pass or to force the defense to deploy or assume a legal guarding position at the side, in front or behind the offensive post player. When the offensive player then uses the "swim stroke", pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body, or just generally demonstrates rough physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the offensive player and must be called without warning.
2: The defense can assume a legal vertical stance or position on the side, front or behind of the offensive post player. When the defense undercuts(initiates lower-body non-vertical contact), slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough, physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense and must be called without warning.
3: When a player pushes a leg or knee into the rear of an opponent, it is a foul.
4: When a layer dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or "backing in", it is a foul.
5: When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul

<b>POE 2(D)- REBOUNDING:</b>
A player has a right to any spot on the floor he or she may get to legally. To obtain or maintain a legal rebounding position a player may not:
1: Displace charge or push an opponent.
2: Extend shoulders, hips or knees, or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in a position other than vertical, so that the opponent's freedom of movement is hindered when contact with the arms or elbows occur.
3: bends his or her body in an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
4: Violate the principle of verticality.
5: Better his or her position by other than legal means.

Note that the NFHS also issued similar guidelines for Rough Play with reference to handchecking, screening and block/charge in the same POE.

I print the NFHS POE's out every year from the FED web site and put them in a file, as I also do for the NCAA bulletins. I find doing so great for future refence and training.

I think the NCAA's explanations of legal and illegal activity are more clearly written. To each his own.

What <b>isn't</b> clearly written in the FED POE?:confused:

Alot. What, in the post play section of the POE above is #5 saying. Can I use a forearm to maintain position, or can I not use one at all. It is very vague in its wording. And what the hell in the offensive part does it mean by "shape up".

I just want to know from the rulebook if a forearm is legal or not for the purposes of just maintaining position. It sounds like it is reffed differently throughout the nation. I am going to ask my assignor next time I see him and see what he says, so I can make sure I am, in fact, in Rome. Cause its possible I am in the suburbs of it.

Sigh....

As posted on this forum before, several times....taken from the same and other NFHS POE's:

<font size = +6><b>"USE OF A FOREARM, REGARDLESS OF THE DURATION OF THE CONTACT, IS A FOUL!"</b></font>

That is a direct cite from the NFHS 2003-04 rule book.

The usage of a forearm under NFHS rules is <b>NEVER</b> legal under <b>ANY</b> circumstances.

Well, I choose the Triangle because it has a wider base when I shape up in the Post. A circle is just to unstable down low.

Right. But as btaylor points out, it also says:

When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul.

That seems to suggest that it's NOT a foul to use a forearm as long as you don't prevent your opponent from maintaining a legal position.

Now, you and I both know that's NOT what it means. But if you only read the POE and not the section that you cited, that's what somebody would infer. It could be written better there.

It's the equivalent of the NBA's expression to "firm up" for the contact.

Yes, but the term "firm up" in the NBA venacular refers to the defense. "Shape up", to me, is so ambigious and a weird wording. Do you think they changed from "firm up" to "shape up" just so they wouldn't have the same wording as the NBA?

By the by, I understand what you are saying and thank you.

P.S. To me, it sucks that a player can't at least use a forearm to maintain position.

This text is clear. This is also not in the excerpt you posted before and referenced as being clear. This would make the whole excerpt clearer. Especially the large font size. :)

I'm surprised those big letters weren't blue.