T or no T ???

Daryl H. Long · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 15, 2006, 11:18am

I can't say things much better than JR. We are hired to do a job so do it when warranted. Some player behavior can be taken care of with the coaches assistance but most I take care of myself.

I guess I make a distiction between general whining and someone telling me to blow my whistle. When the former happens I will immediately address the matter (not always the same way). The latter is not acceptable and no warning given.

I accept the fact that some of you try to involve the coach but lets face it, not all situations warrant that. As Dan_Ref said, the whining should have been taken care of 2 1/2 quarters earlier. Maybe then the T would never have happened. I have observed many officials over the years and in almost every case those who believed as Ron Ref did that neither the whining nor the toot your whistle outburst warranted a T, the number of T's they have given collectively in their carreers is miniscule. Additionally, thier games are very stressful and the more difficult rating I place on those game is due to officials not doing their jobs efficiently.

I have seen many D1 refs who I have evaluated or scouted who are not of that calibre and were way above their heads when it came to officiating at that level. They got there because of who they know and not on ability. I have seen other D1 refs who can boast of few T's because they take care of the little things so the big ones are less likely to happen.

RonRef · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 15, 2006, 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I can't say things much better than JR. We are hired to do a job so do it when warranted. Some player behavior can be taken care of with the coaches assistance but most I take care of myself.

I guess I make a distiction between general whining and someone telling me to blow my whistle. When the former happens I will immediately address the matter (not always the same way). The latter is not acceptable and no warning given.

I accept the fact that some of you try to involve the coach but lets face it, not all situations warrant that. As Dan_Ref said, the whining should have been taken care of 2 1/2 quarters earlier. Maybe then the T would never have happened. I have observed many officials over the years and in almost every case those who believed as Ron Ref did that neither the whining nor the toot your whistle outburst warranted a T, the number of T's they have given collectively in their carreers is miniscule. Additionally, thier games are very stressful and the more difficult rating I place on those game is due to officials not doing their jobs efficiently.

I have seen many D1 refs who I have evaluated or scouted who are not of that calibre and were way above their heads when it came to officiating at that level. They got there because of who they know and not on ability. I have seen other D1 refs who can boast of few T's because they take care of the little things so the big ones are less likely to happen.

As I stated earlier there are many ways to deal with game management issues. Just because we take care of these issues in different ways doesn't mean either one of us is right or wrong. We all bring different talents to the officiating table. Some may use the technical foul and that works for them, some may like to be more proactive and use the coach/captain to resolve problems, whatever works for you. I also understand that we all have difference levels of tolerance for this type of behavior and there can't be an absolute rule when to whack and when not to whack the player or coach.

Daryl H. Long · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 15, 2006, 12:51pm

RonRef:

You want absolute? You want absolute? You can't handle absolute!

If NF Rule 10-3-7a is not absolute enough for you then there is nothing more I can say.

Telling me to "toot my whistle" in disgust is as disrespectful as a player can get.

RonRef · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 15, 2006, 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

RonRef:

You want absolute? You want absolute? You can't handle absolute!

If NF Rule 10-3-7a is not absolute enough for you then there is nothing more I can say.

Telling me to "toot my whistle" in disgust is as disrespectful as a player can get.

It maybe to you and other officials, but to a lot of officials that doesn't warrant a technical foul.

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 15, 2006, 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I accept the fact that some of you try to involve the coach but lets face it, not all situations warrant that.

Yup, that was my point. It might be fine for some situations, but it might be throwing gas on a fire in other situations.

As for technical fouls, imo they're always very subjective. Everybody has a different tolerance level. As long as the game is ultimately kept under control, that's really all that matters. I do think that your tolerance level has to increase with the level of ball being played though. What is a "T" at the high school level might not be a "T" at the college level.

Having said that, I too have a low tolerance at the high school level re: whining, moaning ballplayers. Sometimes they'll get a warning; sometimes they won't. But as long as they're consistent, the ballplayers and coaches usually will adjust to the official's style.

RonRef · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 19, 2006, 07:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I can't say things much better than JR. We are hired to do a job so do it when warranted. Some player behavior can be taken care of with the coaches assistance but most I take care of myself.

I guess I make a distiction between general whining and someone telling me to blow my whistle. When the former happens I will immediately address the matter (not always the same way). The latter is not acceptable and no warning given.

I accept the fact that some of you try to involve the coach but lets face it, not all situations warrant that. As Dan_Ref said, the whining should have been taken care of 2 1/2 quarters earlier. Maybe then the T would never have happened. I have observed many officials over the years and in almost every case those who believed as Ron Ref did that neither the whining nor the toot your whistle outburst warranted a T, the number of T's they have given collectively in their carreers is miniscule. Additionally, thier games are very stressful and the more difficult rating I place on those game is due to officials not doing their jobs efficiently.

I have seen many D1 refs who I have evaluated or scouted who are not of that calibre and were way above their heads when it came to officiating at that level. They got there because of who they know and not on ability. I have seen other D1 refs who can boast of few T's because they take care of the little things so the big ones are less likely to happen.

Is this just a clash of old school versus new school officials? I have been taught to listen and communicate more with the coaches and work with them to help the game facilitate itself. Do old school officials have the opposite philosophy?

truerookie · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 19, 2006, 07:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRef

Is this just a clash of old school versus new school officials? I have been taught to listen and communicate more with the coaches and work with them to help the game facilitate itself. Do old school officials have the opposite philosophy?

Being new school, I will say that is not true. What others are saying is your approach my work for you and it may not for others. Tolerance levels are different. I personally would not ask a coach for any assistance with a player. I will handle the situation. I would not even attempt to giving a coach any opportunity to help me officiate the game that is my JOB!! Someone, stated earlier coaches and player know who the problem player will be and they would normally step in and handle the situation. One can still commuicate with the coaches, I believe this is done when they are asking a question (jmo) any other time leave them alone. So it is not an old school vs
new shcool philosophy.

RonRef · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 19, 2006, 08:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by truerookie

Being new school, I will say that is not true. What others are saying is your approach my work for you and it may not for others. Tolerance levels are different. I personally would not ask a coach for any assistance with a player. I will handle the situation. I would not even attempt to giving a coach any opportunity to help me officiate the game that is my JOB!! Someone, stated earlier coaches and player know who the problem player will be and they would normally step in and handle the situation. One can still commuicate with the coaches, I believe this is done when they are asking a question (jmo) any other time leave them alone. So it is not an old school vs
new shcool philosophy.

I am very surprised that guys don't use head coaches to help calm "their" players down. This is a easy tool to use to control the game without tossing out a margianl technical foul.

Ref_ Fred · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 19, 2006, 08:18am

Quote:

I am very surprised that guys don't use head coaches to help calm "their" players down. This is a easy tool to use to control the game without tossing out a margianl technical foul.

Ron, I guess everyone has a different way of game management. I had an expereince last night doing HS boys, It was getting real physical under the boards. At one point too physical. My partner called a double foul. The next play down court the same situation. He ejected both players for throwing elbows. After the ejection is when he used the coaches to tell them we will not tolerate that kind of play. The rest of the game went real well, close game and the true talent actually came out in all the players.

RonRef · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 19, 2006, 08:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

Ron, I guess everyone has a different way of game management. I had an expereince last night doing HS boys, It was getting real physical under the boards. At one point too physical. My partner called a double foul. The next play down court the same situation. He ejected both players for throwing elbows. After the ejection is when he used the coaches to tell them we will not tolerate that kind of play. The rest of the game went real well, close game and the true talent actually came out in all the players.

I am not saying it should be used in every situation, but surely there are times during the game when using the coach can really help out the game so maybe we don't have technical foul and ejections that seriously impact the outcome of the game. When I hear guys say they will never use the coach to help "them" referee I really think they are missing the boat IMO!

Ref_ Fred · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 19, 2006, 08:32am

I hear you. I agree with you, in some situations, coaches should be used. Ultimately they are responsible for their players. We are responsible on making sure that the game is played the way it should be. By the rules set in place.

Jurassic Referee · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 19, 2006, 08:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonRef

Is this just a clash of old school versus new school officials? I have been taught to listen and communicate more with the coaches and work with them to help the game facilitate itself. Do old school officials have the opposite philosophy?

Ron, you are completely mis-interpreting what Daryl is trying to tell you. Btw, I fully agree with Daryl.

Daryl said "I accept the fact that some of you try to involve the coach, but let's face it, not all situations warrant that'. The key word is "all". Neither of us ever said that you should never have a conversation with a coach. It's got nothing to do with old school vs. new school. It has got everything to do with disagreeing with you on when or why a coach actually should be approached.... i.e. the actual circumstances where or when a coach should be approached iow. That's where both Daryl and I disagree with you. Neither one of us would approach a coach at the time and under the circumstances that you are recommending.

As per his post, TrueRookie understood what Daryl and I were trying to say

RonRef · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 19, 2006, 08:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Ron, you are completely mis-interpreting what Daryl is trying to tell you. Btw, I fully agree with Daryl.

Daryl said "I accept the fact that some of you try to involve the coach, but let's face it, not all situations warrant that'. The key word is "all". Neither of us ever said that you should never have a conversation with a coach. It's got nothing to do with old school vs. new school. It has got everything to do with disagreeing with you on when or why a coach actually should be approached.... i.e. the actual circumstances where or when a coach should be approached iow. That's where both Daryl and I disagree with you. Neither one of us would approach a coach at the time and under the circumstances that you are recommending.

As per his post, TrueRookie understood what Daryl and I were trying to say

I guess we aren't going to see eye to eye on this one, again.