what would you do

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RonRef

Jurassic
I am just saying if you give technical foul for that comment you are setting a bad tone for the rest of the game. You are letting both coaches know that the shouldn't even talk to you, that is not a t-able offense in my book. As for the NFHS rulle book section you quoted, give me a break. If we called the game to the rule book every game would take 3 hours and we would call 95 fouls a game. This is way we need "good judgement" to apply the rules in game context.

I still disagree. It's not totally wrong at all imo.

You might be setting a good tone for the rest of that game instead. Every situation is different. In some situations, a "T" might be needed to keep the game under control. And you're also letting both coaches know where your personal line is, not that they can't talk to you. There's a heckuva difference between a coach asking a question and a coach whining about not getting calls. Asking a civil question about a specific call isn't a "T"able offense; moaning about not getting calls could be a "T"able offense. Note that I said "could be", not "is".

"Good judgement" includes knowing when a "T" is needed and necessary also. If you wanna let the coaches work you without any fear of retribution, hey, good luck to you. I sureasheck don't recommend it as a blanket approach for all situations and all officials though.

[REFVA]

I guess I was not clear enough in describing everything to that point. He was questioning every call. In doing that I saw a frustration on his boys face. They were starting to foul a little harder. The coach was saying these comments loud enough to have the whole gym hear him. Comments made were just out of line.

I put blame on myself that I didn't have the conversation with him earlier in the game. I also didn't handle the situation as I would in school ball.

Thanks for all you remarks. It allows me to become a better official..

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by REFVA

He was questioning every call. In doing that I saw a frustration on his boys face. They were starting to foul a little harder. The coach was saying these comments loud enough to have the whole gym hear him. Comments made were just out of line.

That's exactly why I don't think that you can really make any hard and fast rule on when to call a "T".

Most, but not all, conduct-type "T"s are judgement calls. Acts like swearing at or physical contact with an official are obvious exceptions. That particular comment made once and as an isolated incident is probably not an immediately "T"able offense. Made repeatedly, and in a different context- as above, the same comment just shouldn't be ignored imo. And.....like it or agree with it or not, summer AAU-type games do get called differently too.

[icallfouls]

Judging by the first post on this discussion, it seems like some information has been left out. If that is the only comment that was made, blowing your whistle and drawing attention (already mentioned) is probably a bit much. I don't see how this is questioning crew integrity, coach just wants the same call on his end.

If there is something that has been leadin up to this (which was recently mentioned) then you've got to decide if this is where you want to draw the line. Perhaps something from this list will help you determine where your line is:

Top Ten Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul

1. You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing.

2. Coaches are competitors they love challenges. Don't back yourself into a corner by saying be quiet or else. Instead offer a reason why you might be right.

3. When coaches complain ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate grip then allow them some latitude.

4. If you know a coach is upset then move out on to the floor when in front of their bench.

5. Don't tolerate a lot before a warning. Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating.

6. Lend and ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are more likely to lose control.

7. If a coach says something and you are the only one who hears it, if you T them while they are sitting on the bench, then you get the worst of the situation.

8. If an assistant is out of line then you can speak to the head coach ask them to help you out.

9. If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you do give a T then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.

10. If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short. Keep it in mind before you do anything rash. Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top ten reasons to give a T.

The Top Ten Reasons To Give A Technical Foul

Knowing when the right time to call a technical foul is half the battle.

There are many different factors to consider, when deciding to give a technical. Flow, time and score, language, the number of times a coach has complained, what the coach is complaining about, whether or not the coach wants one are all things that should be given consideration before calling a technical.

Generally there are three areas of coach's behavior that need attention:

When a coach makes it personal.

When a coach draws attention to himself or herself.

When a coach' s complaints are persistent.

Some technicals are easy. They are black and white situations that leave little room for negotiations.

1. Leaving the confines of the coaching box and complaining.

2. Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar or obscene.

3. If coach or player has been warned and has not heeded the warning.

4. A coach demonstrates displeasure with your partner and their back is turned.

Other technical fouls are not as black and white. In some situations a warning may be appropriate before the technical foul is given.

5. A coach or player continually demonstrates signals or asks for calls.

6. If you are being embarrassed.

7. If giving a T will help give structure back to the game. Will it have a calming effect on things.

8. A coach questions your integrity.

9. If they have interfered with the game or your concentration then usually they have gone to far.

10. Inciting an undesirable crowd reaction.

Top Ten Ways to Give a Technical Foul

1. Calling a technical foul should be no different then calling any other violation. Maintain a pleasant attitude, have poise and presence. Don't embarrass them by being demonstrative.

2. Call the Technical. Report to the table and leave the area.

3. Explanations, it need should be done by partner.

4. Never look at a coach when you give a T.

5. When you give a T walk away. Find your partner.

6. After technical fouls get the ball in play immediately.

7. If you T a coach, after the T come back even stronger. Don't back off. Come back with the tough call that goes against that coach if It Is there.

8. Don't go to coaches after your partner has given them a T. Let your partner give any explanations needed.

9. Make them earn the second one. Don't be reluctant to give the second one if it is warranted.

10. Explain technicals on players to coaches: "Taunting and Baiting", "Cussing", Too much mouth."

[REFVA]

As I mentioned in my last post. this coach was mouthing off pretty much from the start. He stated that comment at about 3 minutes to go in the game. He made it loud and clear toward my partner. At one point it looked like he was coaching the referee's and not his team. I know that my partner told him at one point, coach would like to switch places. He chuckled. I kept saying to myself he is a parent and not a knowledgable coach. "let it ride, let it ride. and maybe I let it ride to long. We should have addressed it much earlier. We didn't. I feel like a monday morning quarterback. I knew what i had to do, but didn't do it.

[Raymond]

icallfouls

• 3. Explanations, if needed should be done by partner.

• 8. Don't go to coaches after your partner has given them a T. Let your partner give any explanations needed.

These two seem contradictary. And I know of quite a few folks on this forum who don't agree with #3.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

• 3. Explanations, if needed should be done by partner.

• 8. Don't go to coaches after your partner has given them a T. Let your partner give any explanations needed.

These two seem contradictary. And I know of quite a few folks on this forum that don't agree with #3.

I agree with #3. How can I explain something I did not see or know why my partner made a call? The best explanations come from the calling official.

Peace

[LarryS]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I agree with #3. How can I explain something I did not see or know why my partner made a call? The best explanations come from the calling official.

Peace

While the best explanation will come from the calling official, I have always been told that when a T is called on the coach...the calling official goes directly to his partner(s) and lets them know what he has and why. The partner goes to the coach and attempts to calm him down, explain the loss of the coaching box, etc.

That gives the calling official the opportunity to prepare to administer the free throws and calm down (if needed). It also tends to stop the debate from the coach. If the coach still attempts to plead his case, I can say something along the lines of "Coach, I wasn't part of the discussion so I don't know all the facts. Either way, that is in the past and we need to get on with the game. Help me out, take a seat and lets get back to the business of playing." A few weeks ago I had a partner T a really irate coach and words along those lines from me helped get him focused and be seated. It is really hard for him to argue with someone who wasn't involved.

Besides, it makes it easy for me to whack him with the second if I am standing right there.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Top Ten Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul

4. If you know a coach is upset then move out on to the floor when in front of their bench.

7. If a coach says something and you are the only one who hears it, if you T them while they are sitting on the bench, then you get the worst of the situation.

8. If an assistant is out of line then you can speak to the head coach ask them to help you out.

I don't agree with these three;

4) I don't believe in running away from confrontations. Handle the situations when they arise; don't run away from them.

7) It depends solely on what the coach actually says, same as if he was standing. Abuse is abuse, no matter what position it comes from, and it shouldn't be ignored simply because it is quiet and comes from a sitting coach.

8) Asking a coach to "help you out" is patently ridiculous too imo. Coaches couldn't really give a damn less whether they're helping us out or not. If you want to tell the coach the truth, that his assistant is gonna cost him, that's OK. The other way though, you're just running away from your own responsibility to keep the the benches under control.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't agree with these three;

4) I don't believe in running away from confrontations. Handle the situations when they arise; don't run away from them.

7) It depends solely on what the coach actually says, same as if he was standing. Abuse is abuse, no matter what position it comes from, and it shouldn't be ignored simply because it is quiet and comes from a sitting coach.

8) Asking a coach to "help you out" is patently ridiculous too imo. Coaches couldn't really give a damn less whether they're helping us out or not. If you want to tell the coach the truth, that his assistant is gonna cost him, that's OK. The other way though, you're just running away from your own responsibility to keep the the benches under control.

The list was presented (I was not the originator of it) so that any official that hasn't seen these, can help them in determining some lines which could result in a T being delivered. It is up to each official to evaluate those situations and what kind of message they want to send. Every situation is different.

As officials, we have either been in, or heard of officials that failed to take control of a situation and they regret not handling it. Hopefully the list can help at least one official here.

Pertaining to the specific points made:
4) I agree, but also we can choose when we want to address a coach's question, especially if the current play in front of me needs me more than the question. By being a step or two away, the coach has a harder time delivering cheap shots that they don't want heard. There are also officials out there that try to show up coaches by just being in front of them constantly, to the point where the coach feels like the official is sticking it to them. A little distance can be valuable to both parties.
7) By no means do I tolerate abuse, if its there, do what you gotta do. I have found out at higher levels that if you are in the wheelhouse of a coach and they say something only you can hear, it is your word against theirs and videotape won't help. I'll go so far as to mention a previous discussion when coach says something that is believed to be racist in nature, it greatly enhances the officials side of the story if the coach had to be louder so that the official(s) could hear it.
8) This is a game management technique that has worked for me. An assistant coach that can recognize when the head coach is getting unwanted attention from the referees is worth it, afterall, they don't get to do too much else. In my situation, an asst. who knew me fairly well noticed that his head coach had drawn my attention (because he was about to cross a line with me). When I looked in the direction of the bench, he immediately grabbed the coach and let him know that he was close to hurting his team. The coach stopped for a moment and returned to coaching.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Judging by the first post on this discussion, it seems like some information has been left out. If that is the only comment that was made, blowing your whistle and drawing attention (already mentioned) is probably a bit much. I don't see how this is questioning crew integrity, coach just wants the same call on his end.

If there is something that has been leadin up to this (which was recently mentioned) then you've got to decide if this is where you want to draw the line. Perhaps something from this list will help you determine where your line is:

Top Ten Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul

1. You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing.

2. Coaches are competitors they love challenges. Don't back yourself into a corner by saying be quiet or else. Instead offer a reason why you might be right.

3. When coaches complain ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate grip then allow them some latitude.

4. If you know a coach is upset then move out on to the floor when in front of their bench.

5. Don't tolerate a lot before a warning. Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating.

6. Lend and ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are more likely to lose control.

7. If a coach says something and you are the only one who hears it, if you T them while they are sitting on the bench, then you get the worst of the situation.

8. If an assistant is out of line then you can speak to the head coach ask them to help you out.

9. If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you do give a T then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.

10. If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short. Keep it in mind before you do anything rash. Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top ten reasons to give a T.

The Top Ten Reasons To Give A Technical Foul

Knowing when the right time to call a technical foul is half the battle.

There are many different factors to consider, when deciding to give a technical. Flow, time and score, language, the number of times a coach has complained, what the coach is complaining about, whether or not the coach wants one are all things that should be given consideration before calling a technical.

Generally there are three areas of coach's behavior that need attention:

When a coach makes it personal.

When a coach draws attention to himself or herself.

When a coach' s complaints are persistent.

Some technicals are easy. They are black and white situations that leave little room for negotiations.

1. Leaving the confines of the coaching box and complaining.

2. Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar or obscene.

3. If coach or player has been warned and has not heeded the warning.

4. A coach demonstrates displeasure with your partner and their back is turned.

Other technical fouls are not as black and white. In some situations a warning may be appropriate before the technical foul is given.

5. A coach or player continually demonstrates signals or asks for calls.

6. If you are being embarrassed.

7. If giving a T will help give structure back to the game. Will it have a calming effect on things.

8. A coach questions your integrity.

9. If they have interfered with the game or your concentration then usually they have gone to far.

10. Inciting an undesirable crowd reaction.

Top Ten Ways to Give a Technical Foul

1. Calling a technical foul should be no different then calling any other violation. Maintain a pleasant attitude, have poise and presence. Don't embarrass them by being demonstrative.

2. Call the Technical. Report to the table and leave the area.

3. Explanations, it need should be done by partner.

4. Never look at a coach when you give a T.

5. When you give a T walk away. Find your partner.

6. After technical fouls get the ball in play immediately.

7. If you T a coach, after the T come back even stronger. Don't back off. Come back with the tough call that goes against that coach if It Is there.

8. Don't go to coaches after your partner has given them a T. Let your partner give any explanations needed.

9. Make them earn the second one. Don't be reluctant to give the second one if it is warranted.

10. Explain technicals on players to coaches: "Taunting and Baiting", "Cussing", Too much mouth."

I callfouls thanks for the list. I will use it how I deem neccessary. I will make alterations to suit my situations. I may not agree with all of what you have listed but a few minor alteration and things will fit my style of officiating. Thanks!!

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I callfouls thanks for the list. I will use it how I deem neccessary. I will make alterations to suit my situations. I may not agree with all of what you have listed but a few minor alteration and things will fit my style of officiating. Thanks!!

Glad you found the list useful, it is something I found when I first started out. Internalize the ones you find most suitable to your style, and throw the rest away. Better yet, pass it on to someone else.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by REFVA

I guess I was not clear enough in describing everything to that point. He was questioning every call. In doing that I saw a frustration on his boys face. They were starting to foul a little harder. The coach was saying these comments loud enough to have the whole gym hear him. Comments made were just out of line.

I put blame on myself that I didn't have the conversation with him earlier in the game. I also didn't handle the situation as I would in school ball.

Thanks for all you remarks. It allows me to become a better official..

Now that I know that it wasn't a isolated incident, whack his butt! It is always easier to judge a situation with all the facts!!!