High School Federation Three Point Mechanics - Page 2

Kelvin green · #16 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 09:27am

Let me suggest one mechanic that is pretty much adopted around here do. When the lead official "cues" the three-point attempt (the one hand) Trail goes up with the one hand and Lead then drops the arm completely, when the basket goes in Trail signals the 3 pointer. There are very few times when as trail that you won't notice lead going up with the three. This is a very smooth and clean looking mechanic. The lead should also know that if you havent already signalled a three,he'll know the ball goes in and he can signal but Trail is going to mirror so at some point in time the trail should have signalled the three.

Lead does not miror. No reason to unless your evaluator says so.

There are a few guys who cannnot adjust but around here when we do Pro games we use pro mechanics, when we do NF games we do NF mechanics. In rec games that use NF rules I use pro mechanics because they are faster. I am not sure which mechanics you are referring to but pro mechanics are not that different from NF... Women's NCAA has adopted many of them and you are even seeing them creep into NCAA Men's. I would argue given enough time some of them will trickle down to NF.
You can also learn a lot from Pro mechanics. I have learned a lot about basketball learning from Pro refs. Also if you know pro and college rules you'll be a better HS ref because many times people watch the Pro game and will ask rules questions or mention something and it is easier to talk with them about it if you understand all the games.

BktBallRef · #17 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 09:28am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

I disagree. If there's a fast break, the trail is not in position, and the three is from the strong side, it's the lead's responsibility to indicate that a 3 point shot has been attempted. It would then fall to the T and C to indiucate a successful try.

The play I envisioned was different from yours.

Your original statement was "the lead never being on ball outside the arc" and Rut aaid that "the lead should not be signaling any kind of 3 point shot in HS mechanics." That's what I was responding to, not any particular play that may have been mentioned.

Dan_ref · #18 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 09:30am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?

From 1999-2000 Officials Manual:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
Three-point Try
281.d

"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall (not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."

Missing a not in here, no?

Dan_ref · #19 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 09:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
Okay, now let me share with you the second part of this play.During the halftime, my partner was furious that I did not signal(raise both of my arms to signal that the 3point try was successful)Due to the fact that my partner is also a Pro-Am official,and he was using pro mechanics the entire game. frankly, after the first quarter I stopped trying to figure out what the different mechanics were and just tried to concentrate on calling the game.My partner told me that he was going to continue using these signals and that I should except it.Unfortunately he wanted to spend the entire half time explaining his reasons for using these mechanics.I suggested to him that we not spend the entire half time on this situation and that we prepare for the second half of the game. Fortunately for us we did not have a similiar situation like this in the second half. I am concerned about officials who work pro leagues,and when they work high school games they choose to use pro mechanics.

Wow. So you drew this guy in a tournament or something
and he made a big deal over this? IMO you just
happened to run into one huge a$$hole. Of course, if you
were depending on him getting you some games I would guess
you're gonna have a hole in your schedule

Otherwise
forget it.

mick · #20 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 09:38am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?

From 1999-2000 Officials Manual:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
Three-point Try
281.d
"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall (not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."

Missing a not in here, no?

No, I am not.

mick · #21 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 09:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Rut was correct with respect to three-man and the lead never being on ball outside the arc.
mick

I disagree. If there's a fast break, the trail is not in position, and the three is from the strong side, it's the lead's responsibility to indicate that a 3 point shot has been attempted. It would then fall to the T and C to indiucate a successful try.

The play I envisioned was different from yours.

Your original statement was "the lead never being on ball outside the arc" and Rut aaid that "the lead should not be signaling any kind of 3 point shot in HS mechanics." That's what I was responding to, not any particular play that may have been mentioned.

Yes. You, of course, are correct.
I bow to your superior knowledge.
My use of never was wrong.
I was wrapped up in the original play and not all the possibilities.

Dan_ref · #22 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 09:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?

From 1999-2000 Officials Manual:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
Three-point Try
281.d
"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall (not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."

Missing a not in here, no?

No, I am not.

Then I need to go back to re-read the manual, I have not
mirrored a trail's 3 pt signal as lead in years.

mick · #23 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 09:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by dblref
I must be mis-reading the original post (not the first time). I did not see anything to indicate it was a 3-person crew. I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that it was a 2-person game. If so, and the lead had the 3 point try, why would he/she not signal it was good. I don't have the rule book or officials manual with me (took it home to study for 8/21 exam), but I seemed to recall that if the lead signals a 3 point try and the shot is good, the lead signals it was good and the trail mirrors. But, if the trail signals, the lead does not mirror. I believe the reasoning for the trail to "mirror" the lead is that depending on where the try was made (i.e., in the corner away from the table, the table might not know it was successful. Did I miss something?

From 1999-2000 Officials Manual:
Basic Procedures and Mechanics - Two Officials
Three-point Try
281.d
"If the three-point attempt is successful, the covering official will signal by fully extending both arms over the head with palms facing each other. When the Trail official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Lead official shall (not) mirror the signal. When the Lead official signals a successful three-point attempt, the Trail shall mirror the signal."

Missing a not in here, no?

No, I am not.

Then I need to go back to re-read the manual, I have not
mirrored a trail's 3 pt signal as lead in years.

It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.

Dan_ref · #24 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 10:10am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.

Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying
attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the
ball after each made basket again, are we?

mick · #25 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 10:20am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.

Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying
attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the
ball after each made basket again, are we?

Dan,
I expect my new book a week after my first game, which is 8/30. I assume something will be hidden in there. Maybe the Lead doesn't have to mirror now, since no one likes it anyway.
mick

Dan_ref · #26 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 10:29am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

It was re-inserted in 1999, but, by an large, I rarely use the mechanic.

Geeze, just shows what happens when you're not paying
attention. Anything else new? We're not jumping the
ball after each made basket again, are we?

Dan,
I expect my new book a week after my first game, which is 8/30. I assume something will be hidden in there. Maybe the Lead doesn't have to mirror now, since no one likes it anyway.
mick

No biggie. Your girl's season starts early, right?
Is 8/30 when they start to scrimmage?

BktBallRef · #27 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 10:38am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Yes. You, of course, are correct.
I bow to your superior knowledge.
My use of never was wrong.
I was wrapped up in the original play and not all the possibilities.

"Never say never!"

mick · #28 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 11:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

No biggie. Your girl's season starts early, right?
Is 8/30 when they start to scrimmage?

Sparky,
No white or white/black balls for me.
8/30 is my first game, although the season starts on the 28th.
I have no scrimmages scheduled, but we usually get one or two.
I was last on the court on 7/18, but I'll be working with my most regular partner, and probably another that we worked with at camp.
Should be cake.
mick

dhodges007 · #29 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
A1 attempts a three point try from the corner,the lead official makes the three point signal.The lead official then referees the shooter A1 from the time the shooter attempts the three point try and until A1 returns to the floor (in case he or she is fouled) The three point try is successful and the lead official never raises both arms to indicate that the three point try was good. During the next dead ball the lead official explains to his partner that as the lead in a situation like this one he is not required to raise both arms to indicate that the three point try was successful. Is this the proper High School Federation Mechanic?

That is correct in three man women's mechanics!

BktBallRef · #30 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 06, 2001, 10:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dhodges007

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
A1 attempts a three point try from the corner,the lead official makes the three point signal.The lead official then referees the shooter A1 from the time the shooter attempts the three point try and until A1 returns to the floor (in case he or she is fouled) The three point try is successful and the lead official never raises both arms to indicate that the three point try was good. During the next dead ball the lead official explains to his partner that as the lead in a situation like this one he is not required to raise both arms to indicate that the three point try was successful. Is this the proper High School Federation Mechanic?

That is correct in three man women's mechanics!

No, I'm afraid it's not. Under NFHS mechanics, women's mechanics are no different than men's. The lead may indicate that a fast break 3 is being attempted but it's still up to the T and C to signal success.