NBA Game 5- <i>Redux</i>

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See, right there is what I personally don't agree with. You said that it appears that was what Salvatore was trying to do. Jeffpea basically said the same thing. However, none of us really know what actually went on out on the court. The only people that know for sure are Crawford, DeRosa and Salvatore, and the crew chief- Crawford- said that they had no choice but to give out the TO at that time. Absent any concrete information, I personally have no reason to doubt what the officials are saying. Apparently others do. That's OK though because we're talking about "opinions" here, and everybody is certainly entitled to their own. You're entitled to disagree with mine just as much as I'm entitled to disagree with yours.

Also, jeffpea made a comment about DeRosa being a "rule book official", as opposed to being a "game management official". Here's my opinion on that, so feel free to slice'n'dice me too if you want. When you hit the NBA Finals, you're looking at the twelve best officials in the NBA. Every single one of them is a "rule book official". Aamof, every official in the NBA is a "rule book official". The NBA will tolerate their officials missing a call or making a mistake in judgement. The NBA will not tolerate an official blowing or misapplying a rule during a game. My understanding is an NBA official will be suspended/fined immediately if they screw up a rule, and if they do it again they might be on the path to becoming history. All NBA officials are expected to know the rules perfectly from the git-go iow. From there, the officials get graded on other aspects, including game management. I think that it would be highly unlikely that an official would be graded highly enough to make the top twelve in the league and would not also have superior game management skills. Personally, I just can't envison Joe DeRosa or any other Finals' official being put in that spot without having excellent game management skills to go along with a good knowledge of the rules. Jmo.

JR, I respect what you are trying to say. I know that the NBA guys have an excellent understanding of the rule book and do a very good job of game management. I also think that these guys are trained in every aspect of late game situations, and the official could have done something else in this situation.

I know we had a discussion as to when to grant a TO not that long ago. As officials, it is not a TO until it is recognized and granted by the official, which is what the crew said happened. Fine, so be it. But this is where I think DeRosa could have asked for a confirmation as to the timing of the TO. A momentary delay to confirm would have kept the officials out of this crapstorm.

As far as the comments by the crew chief, I wouldn't expect him to say anything else. In my opinion, we are a crew, if one of us had an off night, we all had an off night and we will learn from our trials.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I know we had a discussion as to when to grant a TO not that long ago. As officials, it is not a TO until it is recognized and granted by the official, which is what the crew said happened. Fine, so be it. But this is where I think DeRosa could have asked for a confirmation as to the timing of the TO. A momentary delay to confirm would have kept the officials out of this crapstorm.

The man turned to DeRosa, twice requested TO, signaled TO, and started walking toward his bench. How much more confirmation do you need?

Face it. Howard screwed up. That's why he gets to the opposite side of the lane and has that stupid look on his face like, "What'd I do?"

I'd bet a year's salary that you would have granted the TO, just as Joe did. It's real easy to get on a discussion board two days later and say "Joe should have done this," or "Joe should have done that."

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The man turned to DeRosa, twice requested TO, signaled TO, and started walking toward his bench. How much more confirmation do you need?

Face it. Howard screwed up. That's why he gets to the opposite side of the lane and has that stupid look on his face like, "What'd I do?"

I'd bet a year's salary that you would have granted the TO, just as Joe did. It's real easy to get on a discussion board two days later and say "Joe should have done this," or "Joe should have done that."

Look, it is not a TO until the referee recognizes it. DeRosa did not have to recognize and grant it. Show where it says that just because a TO is called that it must be granted right then and there. He knows that in end of game situations, 99% of the time, a team will want a TO after the 2nd FT so that they can inbound the ball at half court. It is common sense, good game management to take the extra second or two to confirm the request prior to granting the TO.

DeRosa is an excellent official, that is why he works at such a high level. I just believe the situation could have been handled better and that there would not have been an issue that put the focus of a well played and officiated game on a TO with 1.9 seconds left in OT. The focus is not on Howard, it is on the officials and that is what will be taken away from this game.

By the way, I would take your bet. It is easy to sit in front of the TV and say this and that, but when that whole situation was developing, I really thought that the crew was going to handle it differently.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Look, it is not a TO until the referee recognizes it. DeRosa did not have to recognize and grant it. Show where it says that just because a TO is called that it must be granted right then and there. He knows that in end of game situations, 99% of the time, a team will want a TO after the 2nd FT so that they can inbound the ball at half court. It is common sense, good game management to take the extra second or two to confirm the request prior to granting the TO.

Bull$hit.

The man turned to DeRosa, asked for the timeout twice, signaled with hias hands and started walking to his bench. Then, AND ONLY THEN, did Joe grant the timeout. Teams call timeout to freeze a shooter all the time. There's no reason to second guess him, grill him, or try to talk him out of it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

. Show where it says that just because a TO is called that it must be granted right then and there.

OK.

NBA rule 5VI and 5VII both say "A player's request for a timeout shall be granted only when the ball is dead or in control of the team making the request". Note the words "shall be granted". Note also that it looks like a coach can only call a TO under one specific circumstance- for Infection Control. Iow, it looks like the situation was just what Joey Crawford said- - if a player asks for a TO, he gets it.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_5....av=ArticleList

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OK.

NBA rule 5VI and 5VII both say "A player's request for a timeout shall be granted only when the ball is dead or in control of the team making the request". Note the words "shall be granted". Note also that it looks like a coach can only call a TO under one specific circumstance- for Infection Control. Iow, it looks like the situation was just what Joey Crawford said- - if a player asks for a TO, he gets it.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_5....av=ArticleList

JR & BBR,

I accept your arguments, I just offered an alternate solution given what I saw transpiring. All any official had to say to Howard or coach was, "right now?" That is not an interrogation/grilling of the guy.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

It is common sense, good game management to take the extra second or two to confirm the request prior to granting the TO.

If it's such common sense, why was Howard so confused? Why was Dallas so disorganized in a routine scenario? Why was Dallas so anxious to inform the officials they wanted a TO after the 2nd free throw? Why didn't they just wait for the 2nd free throw and call time-out? Common sense tells Dallas that the 3 veteran officials know the Mavs will be looking to call TO after the 2nd free throw, so why jump the gun?

Avery Johnson and his coaching staff should get the blame for poor game management skills.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If it's such common sense, why was Howard so confused? Why was Dallas so disorganized in a routine scenario? Why was Dallas so anxious to inform the officials they wanted a TO after the 2nd free throw? Why didn't they just wait for the 2nd free throw and call time-out? Common sense tells Dallas that the 3 veteran officials know the Mavs will be looking to call TO after the 2nd free throw, so why jump the gun?

Avery Johnson and his coaching staff should get the blame for poor game management skills.

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better.

I'm just giving an alternate ending that's puts the blame on the coaches and players. Why don't they get the blame? How many time-out signals should DeRosa have ignored?

So let me get your version straight. You're putting the onus on Joe DeRosa because he didn't ask "Are you sure you want a time-out right now?" Well, if I'm an NBA player then anytime I'm in that situation I'm gonna freeze the free thrower by stepping in the lane right before the Lead administers and say "I want a time-out............but after this free throw"

BTW, Mr. ICALLFOULS, all I did in my post was ask questions, I don't remember saying it should be handled any particular way. I noticed you didn't address any of the questions I asked.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better.

I don't know if I agree that no one could have done it better than BadNewsRef.

But for sure no one could have done it worse than Avery Johnson.

Bottom line: Dallas got all wrapped up in following Mark Cuban down the path of "the officials are screwing us" and they didn't take care of their business.

It's as simple as that. Anyone who's worked AAU ball has seen this drama played out over & over & over. Except the AAU coaches have an excuse: they don't do this for a living.

[Adam]

Apparently Dan Rather is in negotiations with Mark Cuban to get a cable show. You can't make this stuff up.

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better.

There are plenty of situations in which a player or a coach calls a time out in between free-throws in attempt to disrupt the flow of the shooter, causing it to miss. IMO, Josh Howard could of been thinking of the same thing only he didn't pay attention to the amt of timeouts that they have left.

As officials, we are putted on court to manage the game and to give out information. The request for a timeout was not once, but twice requested by Howard. DeRosa recognized a time out request by a player on court and granted it. Simple as that!!! Does the NBA rule book say anything about getting further clarification with your partners and coaches before granting a time-out??? I bet not.

Aside the black and white, this is the NBA. NBA players have been playing basketball all their lives and this kind of mental error shouldn’t be made. Don’t blame the ref for screwing the game up. All DeRosa did was followed what the rule book says and granted the timeout. If Dallas request for a time out and DeRosa didn’t give it to them because he felt it needed to be called after the second shots because strategically it is the right thing to do, then he really did f*cked it up. And what if Dallas did get to advance the ball and hit the winning shot. If that’s the case, is that fair for Miami because a timeout was ignored by the Refs, thus causing them to lose the game.

We see players make stupid mistakes all the time. A team could be up 1 pt w/ 3 seconds left and commit a foul on the jump shooters, putting the shooters on the line for free-throws. We, as officials, know that the player shouldn’t have committed the foul, but since the foul was made, we have to make the call. The same goes for time-out..