NBA Game 5- <i>Redux</i>

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OK.

NBA rule 5VI and 5VII both say "A player's request for a timeout shall be granted only when the ball is dead or in control of the team making the request". Note the words "shall be granted". Note also that it looks like a coach can only call a TO under one specific circumstance- for Infection Control. Iow, it looks like the situation was just what Joey Crawford said- - if a player asks for a TO, he gets it.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_5....av=ArticleList

JR & BBR,

I accept your arguments, I just offered an alternate solution given what I saw transpiring. All any official had to say to Howard or coach was, "right now?" That is not an interrogation/grilling of the guy.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

It is common sense, good game management to take the extra second or two to confirm the request prior to granting the TO.

If it's such common sense, why was Howard so confused? Why was Dallas so disorganized in a routine scenario? Why was Dallas so anxious to inform the officials they wanted a TO after the 2nd free throw? Why didn't they just wait for the 2nd free throw and call time-out? Common sense tells Dallas that the 3 veteran officials know the Mavs will be looking to call TO after the 2nd free throw, so why jump the gun?

Avery Johnson and his coaching staff should get the blame for poor game management skills.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If it's such common sense, why was Howard so confused? Why was Dallas so disorganized in a routine scenario? Why was Dallas so anxious to inform the officials they wanted a TO after the 2nd free throw? Why didn't they just wait for the 2nd free throw and call time-out? Common sense tells Dallas that the 3 veteran officials know the Mavs will be looking to call TO after the 2nd free throw, so why jump the gun?

Avery Johnson and his coaching staff should get the blame for poor game management skills.

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better.

I'm just giving an alternate ending that's puts the blame on the coaches and players. Why don't they get the blame? How many time-out signals should DeRosa have ignored?

So let me get your version straight. You're putting the onus on Joe DeRosa because he didn't ask "Are you sure you want a time-out right now?" Well, if I'm an NBA player then anytime I'm in that situation I'm gonna freeze the free thrower by stepping in the lane right before the Lead administers and say "I want a time-out............but after this free throw"

BTW, Mr. ICALLFOULS, all I did in my post was ask questions, I don't remember saying it should be handled any particular way. I noticed you didn't address any of the questions I asked.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better.

I don't know if I agree that no one could have done it better than BadNewsRef.

But for sure no one could have done it worse than Avery Johnson.

Bottom line: Dallas got all wrapped up in following Mark Cuban down the path of "the officials are screwing us" and they didn't take care of their business.

It's as simple as that. Anyone who's worked AAU ball has seen this drama played out over & over & over. Except the AAU coaches have an excuse: they don't do this for a living.

[Adam]

Apparently Dan Rather is in negotiations with Mark Cuban to get a cable show. You can't make this stuff up.

[icallfouls]

Talked with an NBA evaluator/former referee over the weekend. The comment was that "they had the opportunity to get it right, I don't know if they did." Yes, its pretty vague, but it leaves it open to speculate that more could have been done by the officials.

There is likely to be further rule clarification as a result of the situation.

All in all, the situation detracted from a good game, there is plenty of accountability/blame to go around.

[mcuban]

Have you ever given or seen a time out given where no eye contact, physical or verbal communication between the asking player and official was given ?

Now add the context that the arena was so loud no one could hear each other.

Officials couldnt hear players

Coaches couldnt hear players

Players couldnt hear coaches.

There is always some sort of contact/acknowledgement between player/official before a timeout is given.

No where on the video can you find it from JHoward

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by mcuban

Have you ever given or seen a time out given where no eye contact, physical or verbal communication between the asking player and official was given ?

I have now!

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by mcuban

Have you ever given or seen a time out given where no eye contact, physical or verbal communication between the asking player and official was given ?

Now add the context that the arena was so loud no one could hear each other.

Officials couldnt hear players

Coaches couldnt hear players

Players couldnt hear coaches.

There is always some sort of contact/acknowledgement between player/official before a timeout is given.

No where on the video can you find it from JHoward

If you read all of my posts on this matter, I am of the opinion that more could have been done to confirm the TO request. The referee/evaluator I spoke to also thought more could have been done. However, all of these comments are based on what was observed from our different living rooms.

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Well, I guess you are right. There is only one way to handle it, your way. No one else could have done better.

There are plenty of situations in which a player or a coach calls a time out in between free-throws in attempt to disrupt the flow of the shooter, causing it to miss. IMO, Josh Howard could of been thinking of the same thing only he didn't pay attention to the amt of timeouts that they have left.

As officials, we are putted on court to manage the game and to give out information. The request for a timeout was not once, but twice requested by Howard. DeRosa recognized a time out request by a player on court and granted it. Simple as that!!! Does the NBA rule book say anything about getting further clarification with your partners and coaches before granting a time-out??? I bet not.

Aside the black and white, this is the NBA. NBA players have been playing basketball all their lives and this kind of mental error shouldn’t be made. Don’t blame the ref for screwing the game up. All DeRosa did was followed what the rule book says and granted the timeout. If Dallas request for a time out and DeRosa didn’t give it to them because he felt it needed to be called after the second shots because strategically it is the right thing to do, then he really did f*cked it up. And what if Dallas did get to advance the ball and hit the winning shot. If that’s the case, is that fair for Miami because a timeout was ignored by the Refs, thus causing them to lose the game.

We see players make stupid mistakes all the time. A team could be up 1 pt w/ 3 seconds left and commit a foul on the jump shooters, putting the shooters on the line for free-throws. We, as officials, know that the player shouldn’t have committed the foul, but since the foul was made, we have to make the call. The same goes for time-out..

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jeff, how do you know all that for certain? Were you talking to Salvatore?

Did you watch the game? If you did, you can clearly see De Rosa and Salvatore confer. It also was pretty obvious when Salvatore was using both arms to wave all 10 players back onto the court while shaking his head (in the classic "NO" mannerism - side to side). After De Rosa talked to him Salvatore relented.............

It doesn't take a genius to understand what was occurring.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Did you watch the game? If you did, you can clearly see De Rosa and Salvatore confer. It also was pretty obvious when Salvatore was using both arms to wave all 10 players back onto the court while shaking his head (in the classic "NO" mannerism - side to side). After De Rosa talked to him Salvatore relented.............

It doesn't take a genius to understand what was occurring.

Soooooo......do you know for certain what was said in the conversation or are you speculating? If you do know for certain, would you consider revealing your sources?

Btw, no I didn't watch the game. NBA basketball bores the hell outa me anymore. I have seen that particular sequence at the end several times though. It looks like I'll be seeing it for the next year too, the way that the Dallas fans are refusing to let it go.

Maybe I've been an official too long, Jeff. Absent definitive proof, I'm always gonna give the benefit of any doubt to the officials.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mcuban

Have you ever given or seen a time out given where no eye contact, physical or verbal communication between the asking player and official was given ?

Now add the context that the arena was so loud no one could hear each other.

Officials couldnt hear players

Coaches couldnt hear players

Players couldnt hear coaches.

There is always some sort of contact/acknowledgement between player/official before a timeout is given.

No where on the video can you find it from JHoward

Mr. C,

Josh Howard gave a time-out signal right in front of his chest and started walking across the paint. That is on film.