NBA Game 5- <i>Redux</i>

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cuban supposedly matches each fine he receives with a charitable donation also- so you're looking at 3 mil or so to date.

Oh! He matches the fines with a donation to charity! Why didn't you say so!

I guess that must add some class to his classlessness. Yoohoo..Mr. Grammar Guy...

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Doesn't that put him at almost $1.5 million in fines to the NBA?

Maybe the money doesn't mean as much to him, but even I would learn after the first coupla' hundred thou.

The last two alone amount to $450,000.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Oh! He matches the fines with a donation to charity! Why didn't you say so!

I guess that must add some class to his classlessness. Yoohoo..Mr. Grammar Guy...

All NBA fines go toward charities already from what I understand.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All NBA fines go toward charities already from what I understand.

Peace

Well, now that you mention it, I think I knew that. It makes sense; this way there's no chance an owner or player can claim the league is imposing the fine because they're a little short on cash this week.

Can you imagine the must-see TV if Dallas does happen to come back and win the series, and David Stern and Mark Cuban are standing next to each other on the podium for the trophy presentation?

[jeffpea]

Anyone notice that Bennett Salvatore tried to direct the players back onto the floor initially after De Rosa blew the whistle for the timeout? He was trying to save the Mavs the TO for AFTER the 2nd FT....De Rosa and Salvatore huddled and De Rosa was adamant about granting the TO - so Salvatore relented.

Then as the Mavs were complaining, the crew huddled at the FT line and De Rosa was apparently trying to explain what happened to Joey Crawford who seemed to being saying (based on his mannerisms) - "hey! they called for a TO and you granted it - it's over - 1 shot left" and then proceeded to talk about the remaining 1.9 secs.

I'd like to say that I would have rescinded TO and granted after the 2nd FT, but until you "walk a mile in another man's shoes...." you can never fully say what you would have done. I will certainly "file that one away" in my mind so that if I'm ever in that situation, I will be ready.

I guess this is a perfect example of the "rule book" official vs the "game management" official...

BTW, the officials DID NOT cause the Mavs to lose the game! There were any number of opportunities that the Mavs did not capitalize on...including the last shot of the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Anyone notice that Bennett Salvatore tried to direct the players back onto the floor initially after De Rosa blew the whistle for the timeout? He was trying to save the Mavs the TO for AFTER the 2nd FT....De Rosa and Salvatore huddled and De Rosa was adamant about granting the TO - so Salvatore relented.

Jeff, how do you know all that for certain? Were you talking to Salvatore?

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You agree with what he said, even though neither of you has ever talked to the officials involved in the play about the play, and neither of you were privy to the conversations out on the floor either?

Hmmmmmmm.....interesting......

Two of a kind, I guess. Crucify the officials without hearing their side.

JR, again you are taking comments out of context and spinning them. I was not crucifying anyone. Perhaps I should have been clearer. I merely said how it could have been handled with all circumstances being the same, based on what I was able to see from my living room. I also offered a suggestion that could benefit others if a similar situation were to arise.

If it matters, I disagree with the official speaking ill of his former colleagues and selling them out. I was speaking more to the issue of handling the TO request.

I also saw Salvatori try to shuttle the players back onto the floor. It appeared to be in an effort to wait until the 2nd FT was attempted.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I also saw Salvatori try to shuttle the players back onto the floor. It appeared to be in an effort to wait until the 2nd FT was attempted.

See, right there is what I personally don't agree with. You said that it appears that was what Salvatore was trying to do. Jeffpea basically said the same thing. However, none of us really know what actually went on out on the court. The only people that know for sure are Crawford, DeRosa and Salvatore, and the crew chief- Crawford- said that they had no choice but to give out the TO at that time. Absent any concrete information, I personally have no reason to doubt what the officials are saying. Apparently others do. That's OK though because we're talking about "opinions" here, and everybody is certainly entitled to their own. You're entitled to disagree with mine just as much as I'm entitled to disagree with yours.

Also, jeffpea made a comment about DeRosa being a "rule book official", as opposed to being a "game management official". Here's my opinion on that, so feel free to slice'n'dice me too if you want. When you hit the NBA Finals, you're looking at the twelve best officials in the NBA. Every single one of them is a "rule book official". Aamof, every official in the NBA is a "rule book official". The NBA will tolerate their officials missing a call or making a mistake in judgement. The NBA will not tolerate an official blowing or misapplying a rule during a game. My understanding is an NBA official will be suspended/fined immediately if they screw up a rule, and if they do it again they might be on the path to becoming history. All NBA officials are expected to know the rules perfectly from the git-go iow. From there, the officials get graded on other aspects, including game management. I think that it would be highly unlikely that an official would be graded highly enough to make the top twelve in the league and would not also have superior game management skills. Personally, I just can't envison Joe DeRosa or any other Finals' official being put in that spot without having excellent game management skills to go along with a good knowledge of the rules. Jmo.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Anyone notice that Bennett Salvatore tried to direct the players back onto the floor initially after De Rosa blew the whistle for the timeout? He was trying to save the Mavs the TO for AFTER the 2nd FT....De Rosa and Salvatore huddled and De Rosa was adamant about granting the TO - so Salvatore relented.

That's because Salvatore did not know that Howard had requested the TO and that DeRosa had granted it.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

See, right there is what I personally don't agree with. You said that it appears that was what Salvatore was trying to do. Jeffpea basically said the same thing. However, none of us really know what actually went on out on the court. The only people that know for sure are Crawford, DeRosa and Salvatore, and the crew chief- Crawford- said that they had no choice but to give out the TO at that time. Absent any concrete information, I personally have no reason to doubt what the officials are saying. Apparently others do. That's OK though because we're talking about "opinions" here, and everybody is certainly entitled to their own. You're entitled to disagree with mine just as much as I'm entitled to disagree with yours.

Also, jeffpea made a comment about DeRosa being a "rule book official", as opposed to being a "game management official". Here's my opinion on that, so feel free to slice'n'dice me too if you want. When you hit the NBA Finals, you're looking at the twelve best officials in the NBA. Every single one of them is a "rule book official". Aamof, every official in the NBA is a "rule book official". The NBA will tolerate their officials missing a call or making a mistake in judgement. The NBA will not tolerate an official blowing or misapplying a rule during a game. My understanding is an NBA official will be suspended/fined immediately if they screw up a rule, and if they do it again they might be on the path to becoming history. All NBA officials are expected to know the rules perfectly from the git-go iow. From there, the officials get graded on other aspects, including game management. I think that it would be highly unlikely that an official would be graded highly enough to make the top twelve in the league and would not also have superior game management skills. Personally, I just can't envison Joe DeRosa or any other Finals' official being put in that spot without having excellent game management skills to go along with a good knowledge of the rules. Jmo.

JR, I respect what you are trying to say. I know that the NBA guys have an excellent understanding of the rule book and do a very good job of game management. I also think that these guys are trained in every aspect of late game situations, and the official could have done something else in this situation.

I know we had a discussion as to when to grant a TO not that long ago. As officials, it is not a TO until it is recognized and granted by the official, which is what the crew said happened. Fine, so be it. But this is where I think DeRosa could have asked for a confirmation as to the timing of the TO. A momentary delay to confirm would have kept the officials out of this crapstorm.

As far as the comments by the crew chief, I wouldn't expect him to say anything else. In my opinion, we are a crew, if one of us had an off night, we all had an off night and we will learn from our trials.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

I know we had a discussion as to when to grant a TO not that long ago. As officials, it is not a TO until it is recognized and granted by the official, which is what the crew said happened. Fine, so be it. But this is where I think DeRosa could have asked for a confirmation as to the timing of the TO. A momentary delay to confirm would have kept the officials out of this crapstorm.

The man turned to DeRosa, twice requested TO, signaled TO, and started walking toward his bench. How much more confirmation do you need?

Face it. Howard screwed up. That's why he gets to the opposite side of the lane and has that stupid look on his face like, "What'd I do?"

I'd bet a year's salary that you would have granted the TO, just as Joe did. It's real easy to get on a discussion board two days later and say "Joe should have done this," or "Joe should have done that."

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by PWL

He does not do this, regardless of what he claims. When he first announced he would do this, his office was flooded with people looking for very useful donations. He decided that there were just too many scams out there with their hands out. Instead of checking out which ones were legit, he just blew the whole thing off as if it never happened. He is just a publicity seeking prick.

LOL! PWL, you're alright in my book!

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The man turned to DeRosa, twice requested TO, signaled TO, and started walking toward his bench. How much more confirmation do you need?

Face it. Howard screwed up. That's why he gets to the opposite side of the lane and has that stupid look on his face like, "What'd I do?"

I'd bet a year's salary that you would have granted the TO, just as Joe did. It's real easy to get on a discussion board two days later and say "Joe should have done this," or "Joe should have done that."

Look, it is not a TO until the referee recognizes it. DeRosa did not have to recognize and grant it. Show where it says that just because a TO is called that it must be granted right then and there. He knows that in end of game situations, 99% of the time, a team will want a TO after the 2nd FT so that they can inbound the ball at half court. It is common sense, good game management to take the extra second or two to confirm the request prior to granting the TO.

DeRosa is an excellent official, that is why he works at such a high level. I just believe the situation could have been handled better and that there would not have been an issue that put the focus of a well played and officiated game on a TO with 1.9 seconds left in OT. The focus is not on Howard, it is on the officials and that is what will be taken away from this game.

By the way, I would take your bet. It is easy to sit in front of the TV and say this and that, but when that whole situation was developing, I really thought that the crew was going to handle it differently.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Look, it is not a TO until the referee recognizes it. DeRosa did not have to recognize and grant it. Show where it says that just because a TO is called that it must be granted right then and there. He knows that in end of game situations, 99% of the time, a team will want a TO after the 2nd FT so that they can inbound the ball at half court. It is common sense, good game management to take the extra second or two to confirm the request prior to granting the TO.

Bull$hit.

The man turned to DeRosa, asked for the timeout twice, signaled with hias hands and started walking to his bench. Then, AND ONLY THEN, did Joe grant the timeout. Teams call timeout to freeze a shooter all the time. There's no reason to second guess him, grill him, or try to talk him out of it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

. Show where it says that just because a TO is called that it must be granted right then and there.

OK.

NBA rule 5VI and 5VII both say "A player's request for a timeout shall be granted only when the ball is dead or in control of the team making the request". Note the words "shall be granted". Note also that it looks like a coach can only call a TO under one specific circumstance- for Infection Control. Iow, it looks like the situation was just what Joey Crawford said- - if a player asks for a TO, he gets it.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_5....av=ArticleList