Has anyone attempted to start an Assoc.

[Kelvin green]

I started and ran a softball group for about 5 years...

You have to make sure you have all the legalities covered.

1) What type of business entity is it really, a true unincorporated association, a sole proprietorship, an LLC, or a corportation. It make a difference on how taxes get filed..

2)No matter what you will need an EIN from the IRS. Required to file and open bank accounts...

3) You will want to make sure all officials are contractors. Get the appropriate forms from them to get SSN's (W-9's I belive) HAve them sign a contract so they understand you will not cover them as employee.

4) Check out your state's workers comp laws some states require each contractor to either have a waiver certificate or carry it..

5) Check out you unemployment laws, if you establish something like a corp you may end up filing UI every quarter (at least on your earnings).

6) Depending on the type of entity you may need liability insurance and ensure each official has liability insurance. There are simple ways to do that including charging enough to insure the teams and then you may be able to tack on as an additional insured... If they are all NFHS officials you may be ok, contact their insurance administrators... You can alo insure your organization thru NASO and it it reasonable.. Because my softball group was independent I used Sportsples Operators and Developers (http://www.sportsplexoperators.com/insurancemain.asp)

[JRutledge]

Like just about everything else we talk about here, this can have a very local influence to the whole equation (Sorry Rocky but this is often true ). In my state you cannot start a local association without approval from IHSA and following their procedures to get one started. I guess you could start an association outside of the IHSA but you could not attend certain meetings, be given opportunities to recommend officials for post season or hold clinics that are recognized from the IHSA and help officials maintain their license with the IHSA. This would not help people where I live want to join your organization where I live.

Also associations around here do not typically assign games. Training and education are the main focus of associations in my state. A lot of what Kevin talked about does not have the same issues as it relates to IRS issues where I live. All most associations do is collect money and give back to their members or pay for fees associated with running the association. Usually this is done by holding clinics, paying clinicians, paying for meeting sites and socials. I know some organizations have tried to apply for none for profit status. In our state that can be difficult and you would have to discuss that with the local government to know for sure. With that all being said it is always smart to consult with a lawyer so that you do not violate laws you might fall under. The main point you need to consult with people and institutions where you are. I just know reading this site and others about how associations are run and function is very different from where I live and the issues that surround our associations. Assigning and associations are very different where I am, so if that is not the typical structure of an association where you live you would have very different issues to deal with. It also might help to figure out from other officials if there is a need for another official's association in your area. You will either be competing against other associations or having members be apart of your association and another association. There has to be something different about your association that makes officials want to be apart of your group and not another group. That could simply be the smallness of your group and the opportunities that might be greater by joining your group. There are a lot of things to consider.

Peace

[BayStateRef]

You have to make sure you have all the legalities covered.
Maybe. Or not. You really don't.

1) What type of business entity is it really, a true unincorporated association, a sole proprietorship, an LLC, or a corportation. It make a difference on how taxes get filed.
Keep it simple. You really don't need to incorporate in any form.


2)No matter what you will need an EIN from the IRS. Required to file and open bank accounts...
Not true. You can register as a "DBA" (doing business as) with your local government. It's cheap ($10/year here) and it is all you need to get a bank account. A copy of the DBA and your Social Security number is all the bank needs.

3) You will want to make sure all officials are contractors. Get the appropriate forms from them to get SSN's (W-9's I belive) HAve them sign a contract so they understand you will not cover them as employee.
Absolutely not. This is the wrong advice. The officals are not contractors or employees. They are independent contractors. Only if you pay any one of them more than $600 do you need to give them a 1099.

4) Check out your state's workers comp laws some states require each contractor to either have a waiver certificate or carry it..
No. No. No. They are not employees. You do not have to deal with workers comp.

5) Check out you unemployment laws, if you establish something like a corp you may end up filing UI every quarter (at least on your earnings).
Again...bad advice. They are not employees. They are independent contractors. No unemployment to deal with.

6) Depending on the type of entity you may need liability insurance and ensure each official has liability insurance. There are simple ways to do that including charging enough to insure the teams and then you may be able to tack on as an additional insured... If they are all NFHS officials you may be ok, contact their insurance administrators... You can alo insure your organization thru NASO and it it reasonable.. Because my softball group was independent I used Sportsples Operators and Developers )
I am not insured by my association. I am not insured by my assignors. I am an independent contractor. I do not see the need for insurance, but you can talk to your insurance agent about this. You certainly have some liability if you assign an official who does something "horrible." But if you have no assets, then you have no exposure.

You can make this as simple or complicated as you want. As I said...it is just like starting any new business. You decide how much you want to pay up front -- or whether you want to do it much simpler.

[REFVA]

WOW, I didn't know it to be so complicated. I was approached by a local AAU organization and they are holding a Summer league that will involve 360 teams, some of the organization becuase of conflicts and lack of man power can not supply enough qualified officials. So I was approached by the person who runs the league and wanted to know if we, meaning a number of officials that work number of games to get together and would we be interested to officiate a number of gyms. So in a nutshell I had inquired with my fellow officials and they all said yes. Now the league is asking for a contract from us and I have no idea where to begin. this is and may be a one time shot and will not require the process of incorporating, opening bank accounts and etc. I guess it's not worth the agrivation. To top it off. We approached the other organization and they wanted all kinds of dues, memberships, % of pay and by the time we got done we the officials were getting nothing for the game fee. So I thought what would it take to just start a small association and keep it floating and use it when needed. I guess nothing is easy. So we have some serious issue to discuss. I also don't want to be in any conflict with my present association. since that is my bread and butter.

I thank you all for your input.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by REFVA

I was approached by the person who runs the league and wanted to know if we, meaning a number of officials that work number of games to get together and would we be interested to officiate a number of gyms. So in a nutshell I had inquired with my fellow officials and they all said yes. Now the league is asking for a contract from us and I have no idea where to begin.

Rut's advice is certainly dead-on: what works in his area (and my area) may not work in yours. But, now that you have explained what you really need, I can offer this advice (based on how it works in this part of Massachusetts.)

No association here "owns" the right to assign games. For AAU, each program finds someone to assign refs. This "someone" is usually an official who assigns for other programs (rec, travel, men, maybe high school) and has a stable of officials available. The assignor makes the deal with the program: how much refs will be paid; how much he will be paid; how everyone will be paid.

I worked an AAU tournament this weekend for an assignor who uses me for his "big" tournaments. For his smaller tournaments, he has enough refs that he does not need me. This tournament director also demands that officials not work more than three games in a day -- and the assignor has to make sure he has enough officials to cover that requirement. I get paid cash at the game site.

When I started out as an official and wanted to work AAU tournaments, I found it difficult to find games, because every tournament had a different assignor -- and each assignor had his stable of favored officials. Now that I have been around a while, I am on several assignor's lists and I don't look for games -- but I also don't want to work more than one or two weekends a month this time of year.

As an independent contractor, there is no association here that can tell me who to work for (or not). If an assignor calls me for games and I am working for someone else that weekend, he just calls someone else on the list. I'm sure that if he heard that too often from me, I wouldn't get any more calls from him.

So....my bottom line to you: I would gladly take on this AAU responsibility, providing I knew that I had a large enough stable of officials for all the games. The tournament directors need to be sure that if they give you 150 games to assign, you will have officials for all those games. My "contract" would be no more than a letter stating the obvious: what is your responsibility and what is theirs. It would state how much officials would be paid and when. (For example, one assignor I know requires the entire fee be paid to him two days in advance so he can get cash and put the proper fee in envelopes, which he personally hands out. Another assignor leaves it up to the AAU program to pay the officials.) This letter also would include my fee. Typical fees for assigning here are $2 per official per game. I got $35 per game this weekend, for 16-minute stop-time halves, scheduled at 1:15 each. The games ran faster, and my games averaged 1:05. Another assignor I know pays $33/game.

As Rut said, you need to know what "works" in Northern Virginia. But I would not hesitate to take this on. It can be a nice income stream. It also can be a royal PITA when officials don't show up or when games get scheduled or unscheduled on little notice. (This happens a lot in AAU ball.) Only you can decide if the pros outweigh the cons.

Good luck.

[REFVA]

Yes thanks a whole bunch for yur input. Most off what you expressed we all spoke about when I got all the officials togther, that is the reason why we settled for 6 gyms a night for 4 nights a week. The AAU organization is running 26 gyms a night. I was more curious to know what the gotchas were to include in the contract, I guess the obvious are what need to be included.

thanks again.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by REFVA

I was more curious to know what the gotchas were to include in the contract, I guess the obvious are what need to be included.

My personal list:
-- How much is the fee per game?
-- Who pays the fee and how?
-- How much is the assigning fee? When is it paid?
-- What happens when a ref backs out at the last minute?
-- What happens when a team backs out at the last minute and there is no game to officiate (do the officials still get paid?)
-- I want to be sure that I am the only assignor. If you hire me, you don't get to assign your friend's cousin. You can pass his name to me, but I have the final say. This weekend, the tournament director at the site (six courts under one roof) started swapping officials so he could keep games moving. (If a game finished early, he wanted the next game to start in five minutes.) This upset the guy who assigned the officials, since he had juggled all the usual -- partners who he wanted together or did not want working together; officials he wanted at a certain level or with a certain team (or more likely, not with a certain team); fresh legs & tired legs; etc.
-- Complaints. Who has final say on rules/sportsmanship/problems? What happens when a girl wants to play with earrings and the officials say no, but the tournament director says yes? What happens to a coach/parent/player who is tossed from a game? What happens when a coach/parent complains about an official?

I have had all of these "problems" come up in AAU tournaments over the years. I had to remove a "scorer" (parent of a player) who was about to start a fist fight with the other team's coach. I have had to remove parents from the gym. I have been told I was the worst official ever and I would never be allowed to ref again in this tournament, and then the next game I was told I was the best ever.

[REFVA]

Yes, I have stipulated so far the basic rules to follow, NFHS, unless specified with a list of rules ro exception in writing so that we can adhere to. Also I requested that they would be responsible for security and if an officials deems that someone is out of control, they have the right to have that person or person be escorted out. Fees, are basic, we assign our own gym which they give us. I stipulated so far we need the firm schedule by and we would like 48 hour notice for any changes or cancellation for games otherwise they pay a full fee. If an official shows up and a game is cancelled and forfieted without notice we get full fee for the game/games.

I guess I didn't know all of what I should have included but, from speaking to you all and also including the issue I am aware of I think I can put a pretty descent contract in front of them and not be off base.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by REFVA

I also don't want to be in any conflict with my present association. since that is my bread and butter.

This was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw your thread and knew where you were located.
I used to officiate in the DC area. I know that the different groups of officials there are VERY protective of their turf. They were always battling over this private school league or servicing that prep school. The associations are so large back there that the people at the top who take 10% or so are making some serious money and they will fight for it.
Unless you really want to tick off some people, find out what association works the area of this rec league and contact them. One of your posts makes it sound like you have done this. Make sure that they don't want to service this league and make sure they know up front that you have some guys who want to. Perhaps they will say fine go do it, and you can avoid a bunch of nastiness. However, I would certainly ask why they don't want to work that league, if that is the case. Is it just lack of manpower, have they had a problem with the coordinator of that AAU league in the past, or will you discover that the league won't meet their fees and is trying to get you for cheaper? Do you really want to undercut your fellow officials?
I've discoverd that many basketball officiating associations work similarly to trade unions and you need to be careful how and where to step around them.

[REFVA]

The association that will be working the same league does not have the man power. I did approach them but they wanted membership dues, 10% and at the end it was a very low pay rate.


I don't want to step on anyones toes or turf. It's strictly business as they say. Although I know resentment will play a big role in this as well.

[ShadowStripes]

Good advice Nevada. REFVA, be very careful about undercutting your association. They will never assign you games again if you pull a stunt like that. I'm willing to bet that if the summer league is as large as you say it is and the dominant association isn't working the games, it is because of a contract dispute with pay rather than the number of officials available. I'm also willing to bet your treading on thin ice with this.

This kind of stuff does officials (who are for the most part grossly underpaid for the kind of crap we put up with in summer leagues) a disservice. By working independent of the association and picking up a few gyms, you allow the leagues to divide and conquer officials by keeping fees at at an unreasonably low level. It's a free market and you're well within your rights to do it, but don't get upset if you get fingered (and you will) and shut out by your association.

[REFVA]

Believe me I'm not under cutting anyone. The rate is par to league play. When I approached the association who is doing the major game, they told me what the contract rate was based I already new my rate. They told me out right, they don't have enough officials due to camps, vacations, other sports etc. Plus they are not my home base association. They want me to become an official in their association as well as my group. But dues and 10% does not make it worth for any of the officials. Since we have to do some travel to NO. VA.

[26 Year Gap]

Just my 2 cents, but it sounds like you are looking to be an assignor for these games and would not need to form an association. I would just have a basic contract outlining your responsibilities and not try to make it more complicated than it really is.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

You have to make sure you have all the legalities covered.
Maybe. Or not. You really don't.

1) What type of business entity is it really, a true unincorporated association, a sole proprietorship, an LLC, or a corportation. It make a difference on how taxes get filed.
Keep it simple. You really don't need to incorporate in any form.


2)No matter what you will need an EIN from the IRS. Required to file and open bank accounts...
Not true. You can register as a "DBA" (doing business as) with your local government. It's cheap ($10/year here) and it is all you need to get a bank account. A copy of the DBA and your Social Security number is all the bank needs.

3) You will want to make sure all officials are contractors. Get the appropriate forms from them to get SSN's (W-9's I belive) HAve them sign a contract so they understand you will not cover them as employee.
Absolutely not. This is the wrong advice. The officals are not contractors or employees. They are independent contractors. Only if you pay any one of them more than $600 do you need to give them a 1099.

4) Check out your state's workers comp laws some states require each contractor to either have a waiver certificate or carry it..
No. No. No. They are not employees. You do not have to deal with workers comp.

5) Check out you unemployment laws, if you establish something like a corp you may end up filing UI every quarter (at least on your earnings).
Again...bad advice. They are not employees. They are independent contractors. No unemployment to deal with.

6) Depending on the type of entity you may need liability insurance and ensure each official has liability insurance. There are simple ways to do that including charging enough to insure the teams and then you may be able to tack on as an additional insured... If they are all NFHS officials you may be ok, contact their insurance administrators... You can alo insure your organization thru NASO and it it reasonable.. Because my softball group was independent I used Sportsples Operators and Developers )
I am not insured by my association. I am not insured by my assignors. I am an independent contractor. I do not see the need for insurance, but you can talk to your insurance agent about this. You certainly have some liability if you assign an official who does something "horrible." But if you have no assets, then you have no exposure.

You can make this as simple or complicated as you want. As I said...it is just like starting any new business. You decide how much you want to pay up front -- or whether you want to do it much simpler.

You better check your business laws before telling somone they are getting bad advice. There are legalities. Yes you can do a DBA (sole proprietorship) and the individual is at risk for running the association/business. If the person is looking at some sort of limited liability then they can seek the legal protection of an LLC or a corp.

Even sole proprietorships get EIN's so they dont have to provide SSN's to the contracting organizations. If the City/league whatever pays money they may have to do a 1099 for ain individual is a sole proprietorship

Official's are independent contractors but you are required to get a W-9 or equivalent. They have to provide a SSN (that's what the W-9 is for) if not then you are required to withold money. Even if you pay them less than the $600 threshold for reporting on a 1099.

In Utah and in many other states even though the person is an independent contractor, the contractor is required to provide a certificate that they are exempt as self employed. (Although not enforced much..) I had a municipality and a restaurant group that rquired the exemption certificates or they would not hire us. I never said he had to pay WC on the contractor but may have to have the contarctor provide something

If he decided to incorporate he would have to pay UI on any moneies he paid to a principal.... Once again depends on the business entity created. That's why I said check the UI laws...He doesn not have to pay on independeny contractors but may have to pay on himself depending on organization

Youre right if you have no assets why get insurance. That's why we all have coverage if we register with NFHS. But if they sue the association thinking it is deep pockets... (even if it is not) insurance would be nice to pay the attorney's fees to fight the suit, or pay something so you would not lose the little things like your car or house. I am not losing the equity in my house over a twent dollar basketball game when I could pay insurance premium.

Like I said I had an association that began as a corporation and dealt with each one of the issues above, When it went to one league I dropped the corporation bu still had some of the issues to deal with. Not bad advice been down the road...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Even sole proprietorships get EIN's so they dont have to provide SSN's to the contracting organizations. If the City/league whatever pays money they may have to do a 1099 for ain individual is a sole proprietorship

Official's are independent contractors but you are required to get a W-9 or equivalent. They have to provide a SSN (that's what the W-9 is for) if not then you are required to withold money. Even if you pay them less than the $600 threshold for reporting on a 1099.

Kevin, this is simply not true. Now any organization that is paying out money will have to report those expenses in their tax reports, but the independent contractor does not have to fill out a W-9. I have been sent forms from schools but I do not fill them out. I file my own information for my tax purposes.

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

In Utah and in many other states even though the person is an independent contractor, the contractor is required to provide a certificate that they are exempt as self employed. (Although not enforced much..) I had a municipality and a restaurant group that rquired the exemption certificates or they would not hire us. I never said he had to pay WC on the contractor but may have to have the contarctor provide something

This is not true in my state. We only have to file income that we receive. We do not have to declare being self-employed, because people might have other jobs or other income. Independent contractor status is a state law for the most part. So every state might have different requirements and different laws that regulate this. Our State Association (The IHSA) cannot even set up an evaluator program for playoff purposes unless they want to violate independent contractor law. This would make all officials employees of the IHSA and things like benefits and insurance would be the responsibility of the IHSA. This is why I stated this issue is not a universal issue across the board. What might be a law in one state might not apply at all in another state. Not all have the same laws about independent contractors and not all states have the same tax laws. Texas has no income tax, so how you are taxed and who taxes you will vary from one place to another.

Also none of the information you are talking about even applies to where I live. Associations are there for training, they are not there to pay officials and assign officials to work games. The money is taken in to give directly back to the officials that pay dues. Associations do not have to file taxes as cooperation and often have "non for profit" status" which is a state law.

Peace