Your Call Please

TGR · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 15, 2000, 01:12am

I agree with the idea that a positive pregame conference would help cover a specific instance such as this.
However, if the officials had to deal with such a call, it is important to meet and talk it out. If the lead called a jump ball because he felt the defender made a good defensive play, but the trail saw that the defender pushed the offensive player in the back, the officials must decide which happened first. Remember, if the jump ball occurred before the foul, the ball became dead. Consequently, there can be no foul, unless it is intentional or flagrant. If the foul occurred first, the ball also became dead, and there can be no violation. See Fed. Casebook (2.6A. and 2.6B.)
If neither official is willing to back off, they are putting themselves in a horrible situation. Simply, PREGAME CONFERENCE!!
--TGR

Just Curious · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 15, 2000, 01:38am

A1 closely guarded by B1 attempts a layup on a fast break off a stolen ball. Lead and trail officials are in great positions.
Lead official's view: As A1 brings the ball up to start the try and the ball clearly in view, B1 firmly places his hand on top of the ball and forces the ball to remain in A1's hand... No release. Call: Held Ball
Trail official's view: As A1 brings the ball up and the ball clearly out of view, B1 is pushing in on the back of A1. Call: Foul
Both calls are valid.... Where would you go from here??????

John B · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 15, 2000, 02:18am

On paper thats a tough one. Im assuming that both officials blew their whistles at about the same time. If you had a good pregame with your partner you should have gone over a double whistle.

The first thing I look for on the double whistle is my partners hand. If he has a closed fist indicating he is stopping the clock for a foul, Im going to back off on my held ball or violation.

I usually tell my partner if I have a violation or held ball and you have a foul, come hard to the play with a second blast of your whistle, which lets me know s/he got a good look and wants the call.

Just Curious · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 16, 2000, 03:45am

quote:
Originally posted by TGR on 01-15-2000 12:12 PM
I agree with the idea that a positive pregame conference would help cover a specific instance such as this.
However, if the officials had to deal with such a call, it is important to meet and talk it out. If the lead called a jump ball because he felt the defender made a good defensive play, but the trail saw that the defender pushed the offensive player in the back, the officials must decide which happened first. Remember, if the jump ball occurred before the foul, the ball became dead. Consequently, there can be no foul, unless it is intentional or flagrant. If the foul occurred first, the ball also became dead, and there can be no violation. See Fed. Casebook (2.6A. and 2.6B.)
If neither official is willing to back off, they are putting themselves in a horrible situation. Simply, PREGAME CONFERENCE!!
--TGR

Thanks for your response..... Let's assume worse case and we have a simultaneous double whistle. Do you personally place levels of importance on violations and fouls. I.e. fouls take precedence over violations. Or how about the direction of the play..... in that the official having the play coming at him or her has the call as opposed to the official having the play going away from him or her(If that makes any sense. )
jc

ken roberts · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 16, 2000, 11:37am

Well, in my pregame i say, "On a double whistle, whoever the play is coming towards will have the call. However, if the plays coming towards me and i see that your rapidly approaching me with your hand up, i'm going to defer to you. So don't approach unless your 100% sure that your infraction happened first."

Now in this case, it's going to look bad since everyone in the gym knows that Lead called a jump and Trail called something else. This stems from the fact that we stop the clock on a jump with the Signal #3. Not a problem on most double whistles since most people don't know the difference between an open hand raised and a closed fist.

There is no precedence bewteen fouls and violations (2-6). You must decide which came first. While usually, whoever the plays coming towards has the call, in this case i think i'll let Trail decide which came first. Lead never saw the foul, so has no idea if it came before the jump or not.

While Trail did not see the jump, he does know when it occurred: at the apex of the shooter's leap. Thus, we'll live and die with Trail's final decision...

Dennis Nicely · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 16, 2000, 05:11pm

It seems to me you cannot have a held ball on this play unless the player was airborne. The questions becomes whether or not the push came while the player was airborne. This to me is the trail's call to make and if I were the lead, I would let him make it.

Joe Bob · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 18, 2000, 04:39am

My first reaction to this scenerio was the comment of the fast break portion of the play. If lead was in great position on this fast break, then trail was really trailing if he was in great position. If the push to the back wasn't flagrant, intentional or an obvious 'hard' foul, then why call it. We know that all contact is not a foul. I'm seeing this trail official in the backcourt making his transition from lead to trail and may not be in the best position to call this. I always try to withhold my signal, open or closed fist, on a nearly simultaneous whistle if it is not in my preliminary area. This doesn't always happen but I would rather sound the whistle, talk with my partner and get the call right. This is just an observation.. I'm not trying to piss anyone off..!!