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-   -   Terry suspended for punch (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/26634-terry-suspended-punch.html)

BktBallRef Fri May 19, 2006 09:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtref
Did you see the play live? There was a ton of contact, imho. I am not saying it should be a foul in the NBA, but I believe in college it would be called a foul because the contact occurred before the hand got on the ball.
What does that have to do with anything? That's like the angry fan who yells, "Call something ref, before somebody gets hurt!"

Whether the foul is called or not, Terry threw a punch. Being fouled does not give him that right. Calling the foul does not erase the contact. Don't be so follish as to think that the punch would not have been thrown if a whistle had blown.

Dribble Fri May 19, 2006 09:24am
I saw the Bowen block live on TV and on numerous replays and I still think it's CLEAN. I'll call that a jump ball in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters...had nothing to do with the time of the game either.

I've yet to hear from a single commentator (even Barkley) that this should've been a foul. The only ones I hear complaining about it are Mavs fans.

Jimgolf Fri May 19, 2006 09:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
What does that have to do with anything? That's like the angry fan who yells, "Call something ref, before somebody gets hurt!"

Whether the foul is called or not, Terry threw a punch. Being fouled does not give him that right. Calling the foul does not erase the contact. Don't be so follish as to think that the punch would not have been thrown if a whistle had blown.
This is what happens when a thread gets hijacked. I'm pretty sure dtref was talking about the block, not the punch.

Dan_ref Fri May 19, 2006 09:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
It is worrisome for the avocation of officiating in general. It further promotes the they're blind, how can they not see that, etc. fanboy banter.
Ah, I see.

Long ago I learned to ignore the "they're blind, how can they not see that, etc. fanboy banter".

It was either that or stop officiating.

JRutledge Fri May 19, 2006 09:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
DT, I didn't see the play live but I can tell you my experiences.

2 seasons ago I officiated my first big-time HS Boys Varsity. Defending AAA (large schools) champion vs. their biggest rival. I worked with 2 of the most respected officials on my board. It was my formal evaluation game for the season. Observer is in 6 D1 conferences (including 2 majors) and this past season officiated the NCAA-W D2 Final Four and is also one of my mentors.

I'm the new lead late in 4th quarter after D1 recruit point guard gets steal and thinks he has an easy break-away. He gathers himself on 2 feet and elevates for dunk. Out of nowhere D1 recruit from other team soars in and pins the ball against the backboard. I blew my whistle b/c from my vantage point I felt there was a lot of body contact. In the locker room after the game the observer and both my partners all said that on a play like that the body contact wasn't sever enough to outweigh the good block up top. In their words it was a big-time block and if I wanted to advance I would have to be able to recognize such plays. Also, every camp environment I've been in where D1 officials are observing I always here the same thing, "let players block shots" which again pretty much goes back to the 80/20 philosophy Chuck brought up.
I have the same experience. If you call this a foul just based on this picture, you will not advance to JUCO ball, let alone working a good boy's HS game. I have never heard the 80/20 philosophy, but the term I have heard used, "If it is clean up top, the rest is incidental." Also I do not know too many blocks that do not have some contact involved somewhere. Even the Mavs player (I do not want to try to spell his name) fell to the floor, I still have no foul.

Peace

zebraman Fri May 19, 2006 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtref
Ok, I've reflected and this is still a foul. Not in the NBA, granted, but in any other level I would call a foul. Bowen made a ton of contact to the head, shoulders, and body that is obvious in this picture and even more obvious in the live play. That is not a clean block in NFHS.
I disagree. I watched a few minutes of the game and I saw the play. Bowen got all ball and this picture was taken a few microseconds after he stuffed the shooter. This contact was after the initial clean block and minimal at best.

Contact happens in basketball. Not all contact is a foul. This was a great block and just some minor contact down below. Good defense. This isn't the same as a clean block up top where the defender then plows into the shooter hard. No foul on this play, even in NFHS.

Z

dtref Fri May 19, 2006 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
DT, I didn't see the play live but I can tell you my experiences.

2 seasons ago I officiated my first big-time HS Boys Varsity. Defending AAA (large schools) champion vs. their biggest rival. I worked with 2 of the most respected officials on my board. It was my formal evaluation game for the season. Observer is in 6 D1 conferences (including 2 majors) and this past season officiated the NCAA-W D2 Final Four and is also one of my mentors.

I'm the new lead late in 4th quarter after D1 recruit point guard gets steal and thinks he has an easy break-away. He gathers himself on 2 feet and elevates for dunk. Out of nowhere D1 recruit from other team soars in and pins the ball against the backboard. I blew my whistle b/c from my vantage point I felt there was a lot of body contact. In the locker room after the game the observer and both my partners all said that on a play like that the body contact wasn't sever enough to outweigh the good block up top. In their words it was a big-time block and if I wanted to advance I would have to be able to recognize such plays. Also, every camp environment I've been in where D1 officials are observing I always here the same thing, "let players block shots" which again pretty much goes back to the 80/20 philosophy Chuck brought up.
I definitely agree with letting players block shots and I also agree with the philosophy of when they get ball and then there is contact it is a great athletic play. But, in this particular play, the defender, imo, knocked the crap out of Dirk what's his name in order to get his hand on the ball. It sounds like you have a very good mentor.

JRutledge Fri May 19, 2006 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtref
I definitely agree with letting players block shots and I also agree with the philosophy of when they get ball and then there is contact it is a great athletic play. But, in this particular play, the defender, imo, knocked the crap out of Dirk what's his name in order to get his hand on the ball. It sounds like you have a very good mentor.
This is why we get paid the big bucks. This is also why some officials advance and others will not advance. Each of us will be judged on our judgment when plays like this happen. I am confident from what I have been taught that this play was a clean block. I have never been told by anyone to call a foul with slight contact when I have attended college camps or very good HS games with D1 officials observing.

Peace

KingTripleJump Fri May 19, 2006 03:30pm
Anyone know who the officials for tonight's game are?

Kostja Fri May 19, 2006 04:00pm
Sorry for hijacking this thread - Thank you for your comments
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Bowen-Nowitzki pic. I think I learned something that I have been missing so far :)

Now back to Jason Terry ... but without me (didn't see enough of it to say anything about it).

Cheers

BktBallRef Fri May 19, 2006 04:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
This is what happens when a thread gets hijacked. I'm pretty sure dtref was talking about the block, not the punch.
Then the sumbetch needs to use the quote feature. :rolleyes:

Camron Rust Sat May 20, 2006 01:14am
At first when I looked at the photo it appeared that the defender had a lot more arm than ball. Bowen's got at most 1-2 fingers on the ball and is making substantial contact on Nowitski's left forearm and shoulder and only a little on the hand. If was the most he got of the ball, there is no way it would be close to 80/20. ...a philosophy I agree with and use.... and should be a foul.

However, looking at it more closely, it looks like the photo is actually "after" the actual block. The ball was blocked higher and Bowen is pushing the ball down and back. I say this because I can't see Nowitski's shooting hand under/behind the ball...where it would be to some degree in a normal shot. It is pretty much in front of the ball. As such, the block was probably very clean and the contact was subsequent to the block and not significant enough to still warrant a foul.

It is a tough one to tell for sure from a still photo.

lrpalmer3 Mon May 22, 2006 05:04pm
This conversation is very typical of many on this chat board. The NBA does not want this foul called, so if you cannot pass on this then you will not do NBA games. From the experience of many on this board, this should not be called in top HS games either. If you absolutely must put a whistle on this, then you will not do those games either.

Many good officials choose not to move up (college or even HS) because they don't like the way assignors want the game called. They are perfectly happy doing middle school and rec ball, and the rest of us are happy with them doing MS and rec ball.

If, however, you want to move up then you need to swallow what has been said about about this foul. This is not a hard call.

JRutledge Mon May 22, 2006 08:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrpalmer3
This conversation is very typical of many on this chat board. The NBA does not want this foul called, so if you cannot pass on this then you will not do NBA games. From the experience of many on this board, this should not be called in top HS games either. If you absolutely must put a whistle on this, then you will not do those games either.

Many good officials choose not to move up (college or even HS) because they don't like the way assignors want the game called. They are perfectly happy doing middle school and rec ball, and the rest of us are happy with them doing MS and rec ball.

If, however, you want to move up then you need to swallow what has been said about about this foul. This is not a hard call.
This pretty much says it all. ;)

Peace

Kostja Tue May 23, 2006 03:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
This pretty much says it all. ;)

Peace
So, thanks for saying it, your input is much appreciated ;)


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