Terry suspended for punch
 

The NBA released this today: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ory?id=2450020

I saw the very end of this game and the play in question. It occurred following the jumpball in the FT circle. Terry got the ball on the floor and was tied up by Finley and Manu. Finley is seen complaining about a punch after getting to his feet. One of his teammates calms him. Pretty much the we're up 1 with 3 seconds left so let it go talk.

Now I don't care one bit about the NBA or which team wins, but it is worrisome that the officials did not observe this action during the game. It was not penalized and the game was resumed with a jumpball in the center cirlce.

With all the complaining about the playoff officiating, missing a punch was certainly not what they needed.

Ironically, it was Mark Cuban's player who did it.

ironically, you claim to not care yet find it worrisome the punch was missed.

I just saw the highlight of the punch and I can see how the officials missed it. There was a rugby-like scrum and the punch wasn't really obvious. We're not talking about a Kermit Washington-Rudy Tomjanovich type punch here. It was at the bottom of the pile and a cheap, short arm punch.

The officials were probably looking at the top of the pile and seeing who the two new jumpers would be for the jump ball.

So, it's unfortunate that they missed it, but it's understandable. We all miss certain plays.

The TV crew didn't even see it and they have a producer with access to several different angles of the play. Jason Terry made the punch from the bottom of the pile. Almost impossible for the refs to see.

Z

Is this a foul?
 

I know, nobody here cares about the NBA ;) , but nonetheless I would like to discuss this pic of Dirk Nowitzki's last shot attempt in game 5 of the Dallas - San Antonio series:
http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/Bowen...400_060517.jpg

I think I would call a foul here. What do you think? Has it to do with NBA rules or am I mislead with my judgement? Anyways, there is absolutely no complaining out there about the refs not making this call, so probably they were just right not to make it! :)

Cheers, Kostja

It is worrisome for the avocation of officiating in general. It further promotes the they're blind, how can they not see that, etc. fanboy banter.

As far as how the failure to punish this action effected the outcome of that one game of this particular series, I really don't care.

I don't know the NBA rules, but going off the NFHS and NCAA rules that I do know, you would be wrong to call a foul here. The NFHS rulebook contains the following sentence in 10-6-1: "He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball."
That is exactly what Bowen is doing in this picture. This is one of the cleanest blocks you will ever see.
If in your judgment contact between the player's hips, shorts, biceps, or hair on this play warrants a foul, then you need to do some personal reflection.

Not clean if it causes a disavdantage to the offensive player. His hand is on the ball, but the rest of is arm is making contact with shooter's hand, arm and shoulder.

It's been mentioned on the forum before, so maybe you've seen or heard of this philosophy: "80/20". If roughly 80% of the contact is on the ball and 20% of the contact is on the body, you are probably not going to get a whistle in the NBA. If you look at the picture, all the contact is on the body and the non-shooting shoulder. And on a whole lot of the ball. This probably falls into that 80/20 philosophy. Lot of ball, some body. Good block in the NBA.

Ok, I've reflected and this is still a foul. Not in the NBA, granted, but in any other level I would call a foul. Bowen made a ton of contact to the head, shoulders, and body that is obvious in this picture and even more obvious in the live play. That is not a clean block in NFHS.

Nowitski/Bowen
 

From my view of this picture I see no contact with the body. I can see the faces of fans from Bowen's underarm down to the waistline of Notwiski's shorts, so I think we should re-evaluate this "ton of contact to the body" argument.

The contact to the hand and left shoulder are incidental to Bowen's very good block on the ball, IMO. Sorta like Chuck described above concerning the 80/20 philosophy.

Based on what I have heard in camps from D1 officials and even during a my formal evaluation from a high school observer this pictures depicts a good block.

Regarding the Dirk/Bowen photo, this probably captures the moment at the apex and therefore the point of maximum contact, so you really need a video from the point of first contact with the ball to discuss whether or not it's a foul - just like some jump balls where the initial grab is clean but players contort into lots of contact.

Regarding the groin punch, why was there no suspension back in the first round? Wasn't there a Cleveland player who grabbed/slapped at someone's crotch? The explanation we get is that Terry used a closed fist - what's the big difference? if Terry had massaged Finley' groin instead, that would have been okay? :confused:

Ironically, here in Spurs' land, we are hearing that the Spurs were not going to turn the tape in, but Finley turned it in himself. I believe Finley was seriously offended.

Two bothersome things in this incident:
1. one local media station was discussing this and making a point of how Ginobolli and Parker(? maybe Barry - probably Barry) have 'quick hands' on the court, in a context that was obviously implying they sometimes contact players in the groin
2. what are we going to see in games the rest of the summer and next year with elbows and groin contact being highlighted in the NBA playoffs... the suspension seems like overkill at first (no tears for Cuban, however) but really is the best thing in light of the effect of the NBA game on our local HS play

Did you see the play live? There was a ton of contact, imho. I am not saying it should be a foul in the NBA, but I believe in college it would be called a foul because the contact occurred before the hand got on the ball.

One of the things not mentioned about Terry's punch was that Finley jumped on top of him in the tie-up. Terry's response was to punch up (blindly, it appeared to me) in retaliation. This is a pretty normal response to a 6'7" 230 lb guy jumping on you.

The one-game suspension is appropriate, and is mandated by the NBA for any thrown punch, whether contact is made or not.

IMO, Finley's contact was excessive and should have been whistled. Either they felt differently, or missed that action also.

I was hoping to see if Ronnie Nunn discussed this incident on NBA Insiders last night, but I didn't catch it. Anybody see the show? I think they usually have Nunn on Thursday nights to discuss the NBA rules, but maybe they pulled this segment for the playoffs.

DT, I didn't see the play live but I can tell you my experiences.

2 seasons ago I officiated my first big-time HS Boys Varsity. Defending AAA (large schools) champion vs. their biggest rival. I worked with 2 of the most respected officials on my board. It was my formal evaluation game for the season. Observer is in 6 D1 conferences (including 2 majors) and this past season officiated the NCAA-W D2 Final Four and is also one of my mentors.

I'm the new lead late in 4th quarter after D1 recruit point guard gets steal and thinks he has an easy break-away. He gathers himself on 2 feet and elevates for dunk. Out of nowhere D1 recruit from other team soars in and pins the ball against the backboard. I blew my whistle b/c from my vantage point I felt there was a lot of body contact. In the locker room after the game the observer and both my partners all said that on a play like that the body contact wasn't sever enough to outweigh the good block up top. In their words it was a big-time block and if I wanted to advance I would have to be able to recognize such plays. Also, every camp environment I've been in where D1 officials are observing I always here the same thing, "let players block shots" which again pretty much goes back to the 80/20 philosophy Chuck brought up.

What does that have to do with anything? That's like the angry fan who yells, "Call something ref, before somebody gets hurt!"

Whether the foul is called or not, Terry threw a punch. Being fouled does not give him that right. Calling the foul does not erase the contact. Don't be so follish as to think that the punch would not have been thrown if a whistle had blown.

I saw the Bowen block live on TV and on numerous replays and I still think it's CLEAN. I'll call that a jump ball in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters...had nothing to do with the time of the game either.

I've yet to hear from a single commentator (even Barkley) that this should've been a foul. The only ones I hear complaining about it are Mavs fans.

This is what happens when a thread gets hijacked. I'm pretty sure dtref was talking about the block, not the punch.

Ah, I see.

Long ago I learned to ignore the "they're blind, how can they not see that, etc. fanboy banter".

It was either that or stop officiating.

I have the same experience. If you call this a foul just based on this picture, you will not advance to JUCO ball, let alone working a good boy's HS game. I have never heard the 80/20 philosophy, but the term I have heard used, "If it is clean up top, the rest is incidental." Also I do not know too many blocks that do not have some contact involved somewhere. Even the Mavs player (I do not want to try to spell his name) fell to the floor, I still have no foul.

Peace

I disagree. I watched a few minutes of the game and I saw the play. Bowen got all ball and this picture was taken a few microseconds after he stuffed the shooter. This contact was after the initial clean block and minimal at best.

Contact happens in basketball. Not all contact is a foul. This was a great block and just some minor contact down below. Good defense. This isn't the same as a clean block up top where the defender then plows into the shooter hard. No foul on this play, even in NFHS.

Z

I definitely agree with letting players block shots and I also agree with the philosophy of when they get ball and then there is contact it is a great athletic play. But, in this particular play, the defender, imo, knocked the crap out of Dirk what's his name in order to get his hand on the ball. It sounds like you have a very good mentor.

This is why we get paid the big bucks. This is also why some officials advance and others will not advance. Each of us will be judged on our judgment when plays like this happen. I am confident from what I have been taught that this play was a clean block. I have never been told by anyone to call a foul with slight contact when I have attended college camps or very good HS games with D1 officials observing.

Peace

Anyone know who the officials for tonight's game are?

Sorry for hijacking this thread - Thank you for your comments
 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Bowen-Nowitzki pic. I think I learned something that I have been missing so far :)

Now back to Jason Terry ... but without me (didn't see enough of it to say anything about it).

Cheers

Then the sumbetch needs to use the quote feature. :rolleyes:

At first when I looked at the photo it appeared that the defender had a lot more arm than ball. Bowen's got at most 1-2 fingers on the ball and is making substantial contact on Nowitski's left forearm and shoulder and only a little on the hand. If was the most he got of the ball, there is no way it would be close to 80/20. ...a philosophy I agree with and use.... and should be a foul.

However, looking at it more closely, it looks like the photo is actually "after" the actual block. The ball was blocked higher and Bowen is pushing the ball down and back. I say this because I can't see Nowitski's shooting hand under/behind the ball...where it would be to some degree in a normal shot. It is pretty much in front of the ball. As such, the block was probably very clean and the contact was subsequent to the block and not significant enough to still warrant a foul.

It is a tough one to tell for sure from a still photo.

This conversation is very typical of many on this chat board. The NBA does not want this foul called, so if you cannot pass on this then you will not do NBA games. From the experience of many on this board, this should not be called in top HS games either. If you absolutely must put a whistle on this, then you will not do those games either.

Many good officials choose not to move up (college or even HS) because they don't like the way assignors want the game called. They are perfectly happy doing middle school and rec ball, and the rest of us are happy with them doing MS and rec ball.

If, however, you want to move up then you need to swallow what has been said about about this foul. This is not a hard call.

This pretty much says it all. ;)

Peace

So, thanks for saying it, your input is much appreciated ;)

This is the dichotomy of basketball officiating. The people who make the rules have nothing to do with those who hire and assign the officials. Despite annual POE's that plea for a reduction in rough play from NFHS and NCAA, local assignors determine how the game should be called under their jurisdiction.

Aspiring officials would do well to heed these experienced voices who say pay attention to the assignors.

I think I finally get it.

I don't understand the NBA philosophy at times. How was it that Dirk was bailed out on phantom foul calls in games three and four to win the games and Tim could not get the same call in the last game? I don't like to see games decided in the final ten seconds at the foul line if possible, but the Spurs deserve the same calls at the end of the game that the Mavs got in my opinion.

Those are obviously judgment calls that neither you nor I are qualified to make since we're not at that level and weren't there to see the plays in-person. I don't know which calls you're referring to specifically, but the officials obviously determined that the fouls against Dallas required a call instead of the one against San Antonio.

There is a huge difference between a foul called with 40 seconds left and one called with 1 second left. You're not getting a foul to end the game unless someone gets out a chainsaw.

I disagree that we aren't capable of judging these calls as incorrect. Replay shows us clear as day that fouls and missed. It's just wrong to say that we could have made a better call or been in a better position to make that call during live play.

Game three, Dirk Nowitski got a rebound and was fouled with 8 seconds left to decide the game. Tim Duncan did the same thing in game seven, except he was actually hit, and there was no call. The other one was Dirk got a call late when he actually forearmed Bowen in the chest and the foul was called on Bowen and the calls were very late in the game and decided the games.

It's a conspiracy, Dave. Don't bother calling David Stern; he's in on it.

Fanboys.....:rolleyes:

Hey DAVE30.....
 

Dave30, where were you during this discussion??? I don't care one way or another and I didn't see any of the plays live, but I don't remember seeing your opinion on this play nor Kostja's comments.

Definately a foul
 

This is a def foul , the defender as enteedr the attackers cylinder and you can see there is contact from top to bottom, no question here!! UKREF

Jump Ball??????

This is why everyone complained about the officiating at the Olympics, LOL.

The only definite contact seen in this picture is Bowen's forearm on Nowitzki's hand, which is legal contact.

There could be contact at the hip, and at Nowitzki's shoulder, and Bowen's elbow might be about to smack into Dirk's head, but this picture doesn't show any of these clearly, nor does it show the severity of the contact. Based solely on this picture, this is not a foul.

DISCLAIMER: The poster of the quote above is a Spurs fanboy.

Fotunately, FEEBLE refs don't officiate NBA playoff games.

You can't call a foul based on a photo.

Bowen's block was clean of course! Refs didn't want to bail Dirk out three games in a row!:D

The better team won.

Just like last night!! Or did those lousy NBA refs screw the Mavs out of a win there, too??

Oh wait...I just remembered IDGA*!!!!

Of course you don't give an asterisk......you're from the home of the TrailBlazers. I know that's kinda embarrassing, but I just had to point that out.

Who couldn't even manage to get the #1 pick! :eek:

No, no, no...that's Oregon. I'm from the home of the Sonics!!! That's way better than the Home of the Blazers!

Oh....the Home of the Mariners.

Yup, that's much better.:p

Hey now, we're only 3 games out of first right now, so you just go easy on the Mariners stuff...

It's not the first draft they've ever screwed up. :D

Sam Bowie vs. Michael Jordan

That says it right there! ;)