Possible Double Standard

[Raymond]

NCAA Apendix III Section 14. Men’s Hand-Checking (Impeding the Progress of a Player)
To curtail hand-checking, officials must address it at the beginning of the game, and related personal fouls must be called consistently throughout the game. Some guidelines for officials to use when officiating hand-checking:
a. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
b. When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
c. When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent, it is a personal foul.
APPENDIX III OFFICIATING GUIDELINES BR-167

Points of Emphasis for Men Rough Physical Play and Illegal Contact
For the ninth consecutive year, an aspect of rough play is a point of emphasis. This length of time demonstrates the rules committee's consistentand persistent concern that rough play must be properly addressed. Motivated by the basic premise that the collegiate game of basketball is a game of skill, it was the committee's contention that the officials' focus of attention shall be directed toward eliminating rough play and illegal contact in the low post, off the ball, in cutting and screening situations and during hand-checking anywhere on the playing count. Of special concern is the play, without the ball, in the low post by the offensive and defensive players. An offensive low post player, dislodging a defensive player from an established position by pushing or backing in, shall be called for a personal foul. A post player who uses his hands, forearms or elbows to prevent a defensive player from attaining or maintaining a legal guarding position shall be charged with a personal foul. The player using the “swim stroke” movement to lower the arm of an opponent shall be assessed with a personal foul. Likewise, a defensive low post player who uses his hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from attaining or maintaining a legal offensive position, shall be charged with a personal foul. Furthermore, it shall be a personal foul when a defensive player pushes with his leg or knee into the rear of the offensive player. When illegal physical contact without the ball in the low post results in a player attaining an unequal favorable position, an advantage to perform has been gained by that player. It is consequential to observe the offensive and defensive play in the low post from the beginning since rough play and illegal maneuvers may cause and affect subsequent physicality.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Does a "push" or "hand check" get called sooner on the perimeter players then it would on a post?

Probably...should it? No. And keep in mind that once the "post" player receives the ball, they are no longer a "post" player, they are now the ball-handler, so the handchecking rules most definitely apply to them also!

[SmokeEater]

HAHA BadNews aka Captain Obvious. J/K thanks for posting the quotes.

I think that Jurassic Ref summed up the whole thought process.

[Raymond]

Points of Emphasis for Women Displacement
The following guidelines have been established to help coaches, players
and officials achieve a level of play that will allow freedom of movement
for all players on the court and make the game a free-flowing, exciting
game to watch. Officials must enforce these guidelines to ensure that freedom of movement is allowed in the game.
1. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO POST PLAY
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. A post player is defined as an offensive player with or without the ball who has her back to the basket and is either in the lane or just outside the lane. (The lane includes the foul line.) Any player on the court can be a post player as long as they have their back to the basket and are in the lane or just outside the lane.
b. A player with the ball and her back to the basket is not a post player if she is not in the lane or just outside the lane. The defender may not make contact with the arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) in this situation.
c. A defensive player may place one arm-bar on the offensive post player. Extending the established arm-bar and displacing the opponent is illegal and a foul shall be called.
d. A defensive player may place one hand, with a bend in the elbow on the offensive post player. Extending the arm and locking the elbow and displacing the opponent is illegal and a foul shall be called.
e. Post players may be defended by placing one arm-bar or one hand with a bend in the elbow on the opponent to maintain position, any holding or displacement is illegal and a foul shall be called. Two hands, two arm-bars or an arm-bar and a hand used to hold or displace are illegal and a foul shall be called.
f. Adefensive player pushing a leg or knee into the rear of the offensive post player shall be called for a personal foul.
g. An offensive post player may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
h. The offensive post player may not grab the leg or body of the defender, hook or in any way displace or hold.
i. An offensive post player becomes a ball handler (see ball handler or dribbler guidelines) when she turns and faces the basket with the ball.
j. The offensive post player with or without the ball cannot initiate contact and displace the defender who has established a legal guarding position. (see principle of verticality)
k. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching each other but only to maintain position. Any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

2. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO THE BALL HANDLER OR DRIBBLER
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. Incidental contact of the hand shall not be called a foul, however if the arm is straight (no bend in the elbow) or holding, pushing or displacement occurs a foul shall be called. Continual or continuous use of the hand on the ball handler or dribbler is not permitted and a foul shall be called.
b. The arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) may not have contact with the ball-handler/dribbler. A defender that has contact with the dribbler with the arm-bar in any way shall be called for a personal foul.
c. Any displacement by either the defense or the offense shall be a foul. Contact resulting in displacement either with the hands or body is a foul.
d. Adribbler may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
e. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching momentarily, however any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

3. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO CUTTING
The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
a. If the defender beats the cutter to the spot an arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) may be used to absorb the contact, however extending the established arm-bar to cause displacement is a personal foul.
b. Holding the cutter with the hands, body or arm-bar and pushing the cutter with the hands, body or arm-bar off her intended path is a personal foul.
c. The cutter may not initiate contact or push or hold the defender in any way.
d. Displacement by either the offense or defense shall be a personal foul.

[JRutledge]

We also need to make it clear that the Men's Hand checking rules are very different than the Women's Hand checking rule. Also there is no such language at the NF as there is at the NCAA level. I am going to assume that we are not talking about the NCAA level from the original post. So we must take this for what it is worth. Also the NCAA has a tape every year and they do not consider all contact to be the same based on the plays they see. Actually the NCAA feels there are areas where officials make calls when nothing should be called. Then to muddy the water even more, no one advocates a foul fest on every type of contact. You do not have to take my word for it, attend a camp and find out what is considered a "college call" and what is a "HS call."

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We also need to make it clear that the Men's Hand checking rules are very different than the Women's Hand checking rule.

Peace

Say what? What's the difference?

Dang...I did it again. Sorry Dan, Woody, Chuck, Bob, Mick, Tony, Juulie, and Jim...I'll go get that whip out again...sigh.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Say what? What's the difference?

Dang...I did it again. Sorry Dan, Woody, Chuck, Bob, Mick, Tony, Juulie, and Jim...I'll go get that whip out again...sigh.

The fact that both Men's and Women's ball addresses the issues differently in the back of the rulebook (under the Officiating Guidelines in the back of the NCAA Rulebook), suggests there is a different philosophy on hand checking and post play. They do not use the same language or the same points to talk about these rules. Men's basketball goes out of their way to call hand checking "Impeding the process of a Player." At the same time Women's uses the term "displacement" over and over to describe illegal contact with the ball handler. The games are different and they committees are different. Not sure why you would be surprised that they have different philosophies as to what should be called and why. Maybe this is why both sides have their own officials?

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Say what? What's the difference?

Dang...I did it again. Sorry Dan, Woody, Chuck, Bob, Mick, Tony, Juulie, and Jim...I'll go get that whip out again...sigh.

• NCAA Apendix III Section 14. Men’s Hand-Checking (Impeding the Progress of a Player)
  To curtail hand-checking, officials must address it at the beginning of the game, and related personal fouls must be called consistently throughout the game. Some guidelines for officials to use when officiating hand-checking:
  a. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
  b. When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
  c. When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent, it is a personal foul.
  APPENDIX III OFFICIATING GUIDELINES BR-167

• Points of Emphasis for Women Displacement
  2. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO THE BALL HANDLER OR DRIBBLER
  The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
  a. Incidental contact of the hand shall not be called a foul, however if the arm is straight (no bend in the elbow) or holding, pushing or displacement occurs a foul shall be called. Continual or continuous use of the hand on the ball handler or dribbler is not permitted and a foul shall be called.
  b. The arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) may not have contact with the ball-handler/dribbler. A defender that has contact with the dribbler with the arm-bar in any way shall be called for a personal foul.
  c. Any displacement by either the defense or the offense shall be a foul. Contact resulting in displacement either with the hands or body is a foul.
  d. Adribbler may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
  e. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching momentarily, however any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

• NCAA Apendix III Section 14. Men’s Hand-Checking (Impeding the Progress of a Player)
  To curtail hand-checking, officials must address it at the beginning of the game, and related personal fouls must be called consistently throughout the game. Some guidelines for officials to use when officiating hand-checking:
  a. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
  b. When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
  c. When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent, it is a personal foul.
  APPENDIX III OFFICIATING GUIDELINES BR-167

• Points of Emphasis for Women Displacement
  2. DISPLACEMENT AS IT RELATES TO THE BALL HANDLER OR DRIBBLER
  The following guidelines must be followed by players and called by officials:
  a. Incidental contact of the hand shall not be called a foul, however if the arm is straight (no bend in the elbow) or holding, pushing or displacement occurs a foul shall be called. Continual or continuous use of the hand on the ball handler or dribbler is not permitted and a foul shall be called.
  b. The arm-bar (forearm that is away from the body) may not have contact with the ball-handler/dribbler. A defender that has contact with the dribbler with the arm-bar in any way shall be called for a personal foul.
  c. Any displacement by either the defense or the offense shall be a foul. Contact resulting in displacement either with the hands or body is a foul.
  d. Adribbler may not “back-down” and displace the defender once that defender has established a legal guarding position.
  e. Players may attain a position where their bodies are touching momentarily, however any attempt to displace an opponent from a position she has legally obtained is a personal foul.

So let's see...the Men's rule says "keeps a hand on" but the Women's rule says "continual use of the hand"...Men's rule talks about the "forearm on the opponent" while the Women's rule calls it an arm bar...Men's rule says "continually jabs" while the Women's rule says "continual or continuous use of the hands"...so contrary to what was stated in an earlier post, there is NO difference between the way NCAAM and NCAAW want the handcheck called. The only difference is that in their POE's NCAAW lumped each POE under the overall category of Displacement and so they added wording to the effect that neither the ballhandler nor the defender may displace each other...that does not mean the handcheck rules are different between the two...

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The definition of a double standard is something being applied to two different groups or situations based on the same set of facts. A double standard is also considered unfair. I do not treat a rule that involves the ball handler and a rule that deals with a player without the ball as unfair. I guess you do have the right to your opinion, but not everyone has to agree with that opinion.

Peace

So in essence, your contention is that no double standard exists because you say so.

"A double standard, according to the World Book Dictionary, is a standard applied more leniently to one group than to another."

As in post players vs. ball handlers.

As a wise man once said, "It is interesting that he might think that way, but that does not mean he has a real point either. "

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

So in essence, your contention is that no double standard exists because you say so.

"A double standard, according to the World Book Dictionary, is a standard applied more leniently to one group than to another."

As in post players vs. ball handlers.

As a wise man once said, "It is interesting that he might think that way, but that does not mean he has a real point either. "

It says in the dictionary that I have read that a double standard is an "unfair situation." I do not see two different rules cover different aspects of the game as unfair. What is unfair is also a subjective term as well. So if you feel that there is a double standard, then feel there is a double standard. What difference does it make if you disagree with my point of view? I just do not put a lot of stock in some Dad that comes along and makes a comment.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The only difference is that in their POE's NCAAW lumped each POE under the overall category of Displacement and so they added wording to the effect that neither the ballhandler nor the defender may displace each other...that does not mean the handcheck rules are different between the two...

You are right Rocky, both Men's and Women's officiating philosophies are exactly the same.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are right Rocky, both Men's and Women's officiating philosophies are exactly the same.

Peace

you say that the RULES are different for handchecking, then when proven wrong you start saying the PHILOSOPHIES are different

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Dan, JR, Chuck, Mick, Tony, Juulie, Bob, Jim - the "Ignore" button is now going back on...

You have all those people on ignore? Wow...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

And its statements like that that make some officials look like a$$holes inthe eyes of people who actually know the game.

You don't have to put any stock in what someone else says but if anyone ever disagrees with your point of view then they sure hear about it on these forums.

Perhaps that is why, although I respect your experience and knowledge I really don't put much stock in what you have to say.

You are going to change something you do because some guy came up to you and made a statement in conversation? It is not like this conversation took place at a camp or you the conversation took place with a very experienced coach or official. Billy Packer and Bill Walton have a lot of experience and knowledge in the game too. I do not know if they said something to me I would change my officiating philosophy or try to call the game differently if I had a personal conversation with them.

Peace