intentional foul?

[akingsfan]

I was watching a high school girls game a couple of nights ago and saw the following and was wondering whether the call was appropriate or not. It was the last quarter and A1 had stole the ball and was going in for a lay up. B1 was running beside her (both going hard towards the basket). A1 goes up for the layup and B1 jumps with her trying for the block and preventing an easy layup. B1 actually hits some ball (not a clean block but obvious going for ball). The contact and momentum sends A1 to the ground or close to it cause B1 tries to hold A1 up to keep her from hitting the ground. On the play, the ref calls an intentional foul, which observing the game, I thought was a very bad call seeing that she was going for the ball. My thoughts have always been that all hard fouls are not intentional and not meant to injure someone, but most of the time just prevent a shot from being made and the chance for a three point play. Any thoughts on the above scenerio would be appreciated.

[Jeremy Hohn]

I agree with your assessment of the bad call, but on the other hand any excessive contact, even with a "play on the ball" can be ruled intentional. The difficult part is determining intent. Referee the moment and decide if it was possibly an isolated incident, or if the game was getting excessively rough you can send a message that excessive contact even on the ball will not be tolerated especially if it could lead to retaliation in that specific incident.

[Joe Bob]

quote:

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Originally posted by akingsfan on 01-09-2000 03:34 AM
I was watching a high school girls game a couple of nights ago and saw the following and was wondering whether the call was appropriate or not. It was the last quarter and A1 had stole the ball and was going in for a lay up. B1 was running beside her (both going hard towards the basket). A1 goes up for the layup and B1 jumps with her trying for the block and preventing an easy layup. B1 actually hits some ball (not a clean block but obvious going for ball). The contact and momentum sends A1 to the ground or close to it cause B1 tries to hold A1 up to keep her from hitting the ground. On the play, the ref calls an intentional foul, which observing the game, I thought was a very bad call seeing that she was going for the ball. My thoughts have always been that all hard fouls are not intentional and not meant to injure someone, but most of the time just prevent a shot from being made and the chance for a three point play. Any thoughts on the above scenerio would be appreciated.

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My first thought when reading this scenerio was why punish a defender for an attempted good defensive play just because it was late in the game. Chance are this play happened in the first quarter as well. Why wasn't it called then..?? An intentional foul is just that, INTENTIONAL.. It can be as trivial as grabbing a jersey and as extreme as pushing from behind on a break away lay up. Send the message early and as often as possible.

[KDM]

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Bob on 01-11-2000 03:43 AM
My first thought when reading this scenerio was why punish a defender for an attempted good defensive play just because it was late in the game. Chance are this play happened in the first quarter as well. Why wasn't it called then..?? An intentional foul is just that, INTENTIONAL.. It can be as trivial as grabbing a jersey and as extreme as pushing from behind on a break away lay up. Send the message early and as often as possible.

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Joe Bob,

For discussion purposes, here are other examples of 'intentional' fouls by your above definition:

1. Any foul that occurs after the coach (usually late in the game) screams out to their players to "foul someone". The next foul must be intentional.

2. A defensive player slides under 'airborne shooter' in hopes of getting a player control foul, however, gets called for the 'block'. Since there is no play on the ball and contact is unavoidable, this should always be called intentional.

3. Any 'over-the-back' foul since the player obviously had seen the player in front of them and continued to jump on them anyway. A blatant intentional act.

4. All 'illegal screen' fouls. They intentionally set the screen and initiated the contact knowing full well that there would be contact.

5. All 'hand checks' are intentional. Can't tell me a player doesn't know what they're doing when they reach out and touch someone.

I presented these examples to have a little fun, so NO nasty replies. I understand Joe Bob and the point he was making --- it was just the way he said it that got my creative senses to flowing.

Let's face it, 'intentional fouls' are judgement calls. Although it is clearly defined in the book (4-19-3), I think most of us have to rely on the old 'common sense' approach when it comes to penalizing an intentional foul. After all, how many of us can 'read the mind' of the person committing the foul and know what their intent is?

KDM

EXTRA CREDIT ----- If a defensive player constantly hollers a word or phrase at the opponent only when he/she has the ball ----- does that constitute taunting?

[divey]

To KDM

In regards to a player holloring a word or phrase and whether or not it is taunting...

It would depend on the referee's judgement as to whether or not it was taunting.

i.e. If a player is yelling "Hey, Hey, Hey" to me that is not taunting but if the same player is yelling "YOU STINK, YOU STINK, YOU STINK" in my judgement that is taunting and unsportsmanlike. It's "T" time.

Dan

[Art N]

EXTRA CREDIT ----- If a defensive player constantly hollers a word or phrase at the opponent only when he/she has the ball ----- does that constitute taunting?[/quote]

comments:
Interestingly enough, I saw a ref call this in a varsity game last year for a player yelling "ball, ball, ball..." when guarding someone. Another player in a youth tournament asked me about it just last week when a player was yelling at them using simular techniques. What do you guys think?

[Thom]

In reference to the "Intentional Foul". I have seen what I perceive to be an obvious reluctance on the part of Officials to make this call. I am in Ohio and just wondered if there is some sort of "policy" or "philosophy" about when this call should be made and when it should be just treated as a common foul.

[bob jenkins]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thom on 01-15-2000 06:20 AM
In reference to the "Intentional Foul". I have seen what I perceive to be an obvious reluctance on the part of Officials to make this call. I am in Ohio and just wondered if there is some sort of "policy" or "philosophy" about when this call should be made and when it should be just treated as a common foul.

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I assume you are talking about fouls at the end of the game. Here's my take on it:

Suppose there is a certain defensive maneuver that results in a steal 10% of the time and a foul 90% of the time (no other results are possible). THis would be a stupid play early in the game, but if your opponents had the ball with a 1 point lead an 5 seconds left, it might be a smart play, and shouldn't be intentional.

[Mark Padgett]

quote:

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Originally posted by Art N on 01-14-2000 10:57 PM
Interestingly enough, I saw a ref call this in a varsity game last year for a player yelling "ball, ball, ball..." when guarding someone. Another player in a youth tournament asked me about it just last week when a player was yelling at them using simular techniques. What do you guys think?

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Just this morning, I had a kid yell "ball, ball, ball" while defending on an inbound play. I blew the whistle, took the ball back from the inbounder, put it up in front of the face of the defender and said, "Yes, it IS a ball. Now that we've all agreed on that, let's just play basketball - OK?"

The kid laughed and we didn't hear anything like it the rest of the game.

[Mark Padgett]

[quote]Originally posted by KDM on 01-14-2000 03:19 PM
Joe Bob,

For discussion purposes, here are other examples of 'intentional' fouls by your above definition:

1. Any foul that occurs after the coach (usually late in the game) screams out to their players to "foul someone". The next foul must be intentional.

Actually, even though you were being facecious, this is usually true.

quote:

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Originally posted by akingsfan on 01-09-2000 03:34 AM

I was watching a high school girls game a couple of nights ago and saw the following and was wondering whether the call was appropriate or not. It was the last quarter and A1 had stole the ball and was going in for a lay up. B1 was running beside her (both going hard towards the basket). A1 goes up for the layup and B1 jumps with her trying for the block and preventing an easy layup. B1 actually hits some ball (not a clean block but obvious going for ball). The contact and momentum sends A1 to the ground or close to it cause B1 tries to hold A1 up to keep her from hitting the ground. On the play, the ref calls an intentional foul, which observing the game, I thought was a very bad call seeing that she was going for the ball. My thoughts have always been that all hard fouls are not intentional and not meant to injure someone, but most of the time just prevent a shot from being made and the chance for a three point play. Any thoughts on the

quote:

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Originally posted by akingsfan on 01-09-2000 03:34 AM

I was watching a high school girls game a couple of nights ago and saw the following and was wondering whether the call was appropriate or not. It was the last quarter and A1 had stole the ball and was going in for a lay up. B1 was running beside her (both going hard towards the basket). A1 goes up for the layup and B1 jumps with her trying for the block and preventing an easy layup. B1 actually hits some ball (not a clean block but obvious going for ball). The contact and momentum sends A1 to the ground or close to it cause B1 tries to hold A1 up to keep her from hitting the ground. On the play, the ref calls an intentional foul, which observing the game, I thought was a very bad call seeing that she was going for the ball. My thoughts have always been that all hard fouls are not intentional and not meant to injure someone, but most of the time just prevent a shot from being made and the chance for a three point play. Any thoughts on the