Correctible Error Situation

[rainmaker]

Okay so I got into a correctible error situation, and did I handle it correctly? You decide...

My partner called a foul, sent the "victim" to the line for one-and-one. I step into the lane, signal and verbalize one-and-one, bounce the ball, table buzzes. "Should be two shots." "Are you sure, last foul was only number eight..." "We told you wrong, last foul was number nine" okay, so two shots. Misses first, misses second, shooter's team gets rebound, makes shot. Fouler's team grabs ball, inbounds, ball goes down court on a long pass, pass is tipped, bounces, joggles, flies out of bounds (off of whom?). Table buzzes. "Actually last free throw should have been one-and-one, we had recounted and discovered we were wrong in the correction."

Lightbulb in head lights up: CORRECTIBLE ERROR: Awarding an unmerited free throw. Partner and I grapple verbally about what to do. In the end, we took away made basket, used the arrow to put the ball back into play.

At the next time out, I asked the table, did they get it straightened out? She explained what happened. When we called the foul, she had looked at the running foul part of the book, and buzzed because she had ten fouls checked off. But as the free throws were being shot a coach went to the table and said his records only showed nine fouls. The table person went back and could only find nine fouls in the individual-player part of the book, so had buzzed the second time.

Later, I look in the rule book, and see that we should not have taken away the made basket. What about the arrow, is that part right? We would have used the arrow without the interruption, so we just went ahead with that. Which part of the book has authority, the running foul part, or the individual-player part?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay so I got into a correctible error situation, and did I handle it correctly? You decide...

My partner called a foul, sent the "victim" to the line for one-and-one. I step into the lane, signal and verbalize one-and-one, bounce the ball, table buzzes. "Should be two shots." "Are you sure, last foul was only number eight..." "We told you wrong, last foul was number nine" okay, so two shots. Misses first, misses second, shooter's team gets rebound, makes shot. Fouler's team grabs ball, inbounds, ball goes down court on a long pass, pass is tipped, bounces, joggles, flies out of bounds (off of whom?). Table buzzes. "Actually last free throw should have been one-and-one, we had recounted and discovered we were wrong in the correction."

Lightbulb in head lights up: CORRECTIBLE ERROR: Awarding an unmerited free throw. Partner and I grapple verbally about what to do. In the end, we took away made basket, used the arrow to put the ball back into play.

At the next time out, I asked the table, did they get it straightened out? She explained what happened. When we called the foul, she had looked at the running foul part of the book, and buzzed because she had ten fouls checked off. But as the free throws were being shot a coach went to the table and said his records only showed nine fouls. The table person went back and could only find nine fouls in the individual-player part of the book, so had buzzed the second time.

Later, I look in the rule book, and see that we should not have taken away the made basket. What about the arrow, is that part right? We would have used the arrow without the interruption, so we just went ahead with that. Which part of the book has authority, the running foul part, or the individual-player part?

Ooops, as Bob points out I missed the forest for the trees.
If the shot had missed, or if you had been notified
during the dead ball period following the made shot
then you ignore the second FT, as in the case book
play. And it's still a good one!

Good one! I believe since the second of the 2 FTs missed
you just play on as if it never happened (A.R.13 under
2-10b NCAA book, I'm certain there's an identical case play
in the NF book). So in your case score A's field goal
and go with the jump ball on the OOB (because you didn't
know who knocked it OOB, right?). As for the official
score, I'm not aware of a rule that allows either the line
score/foul count or the indivdal player counts to take
precedence. (I will say if I'm not so sure about the
scorekeepers I'll tell them before the game that the line
score is the official score, not the individual score,
just to cover my a** in case this type of thing happens.
I do not believe I have a rule to back me up on this.)
When these things come up you have a great opportunity to
practice your game management skills. Usually each team
has their own stat keeper so there are at least 2 versions
to look at when trying to get at "the truth". It's plays
like this that serve to remind us to know the foul counts
for each team. Very often these types of miscounts can be
averted if the officials on the floor can say with authority
"Are you sure about that? I have only 9 fouls" before any
of the FTs are attempted.

[Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 11th, 2001 at 11:47 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay so I got into a correctible error situation, and did I handle it correctly? You decide...

Sorry, Juulie, but this error was no longer correctable.

The correction must be recognized during the first dead ball after the clock properly starts. The clock started (I assume -- grin) after the second free-throw was missed. When the basket was made, the ball became dead. This was the time to correct the error. Once the ball became live for the inbounds pass, it was too late to correct the error.

[rainmaker]

Yes, I see. Doggone it!! I'm gonna master this thing if it takes the rest of my life -- which it might. I was right about not cancelling the shot -- my partner insisted it be canceled, which I knew was wrong, but I didn't want to stand there arguing, and I didn't feel very authoratitive about any of the rest of it. Next time. I'll know one more piece.

We did argue with the table about the first buzz. Both my partner and I had it as the ninth foul. Keeping track is one of the things I'm working on. And as it turns out, we were right. Darn table girls. Well, I can't be too hard on them. Overall, that weekend they did very well, and made very few mistakes, probably less than me. Next time I'll be this much better, I hope.

[Brad]

One important point: You can NEVER take away any scored goal except for offensive basket interference or goaltending - or for the "A Specific Unsportsmanlike Act" (I think case 10.1.18 or something close to that) where the wrong team takes the ball OOB after a free throw.

That should help you to begin with - the knowledge that you cannot simply "wipe" the basket.

Secondly, as Bob Jenkins has pointed out, this was not a correctable error. Remember the statue of limitations: The first dead ball after the clock has properly started.

The ball being live/dead and the clock being started/stopped are unrelated.

When something like this happens ask yourself two simple questions:

1) When did the clock properly start? (The clock could have "unproperly" started, for instance, if the timer accidentally hit start when he shouldn't have)

2) If the clock has properly started, is this is the first dead ball.

In your case the clock started when the free throw was rebounded. The first dead ball was after the basket was made by the rebounding team. By the time the game stopped on the OOB play, it was the second dead ball.

It's really not that hard, but experience IS the best teacher. My money says that you won't miss this one again Juulie!

While I'm correcting you, it's "...made very few mistakes, probably fewer than I."
(Sorry, my wife has a degree in English - guess it rubs off! )

[BktBallRef]

Brad is right and I'll just make one more point about it.

Every year, the following question is on the NF exam.

Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified.

The answer is true, true true! Never take points scored of the board unless the point(s) score are indeed the actual error, such as when the wrong shooter hits a FT(s).

I bet you handle it a lot better the next time it happens!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Brad
While I'm correcting you, it's "...made very few mistakes, probably fewer than I."
(Sorry, my wife has a degree in English - guess it rubs off! )

I am humiliated: less/fewer is one of my pet peeves, and I can't believe I wrote this!! Thank goodness my grandmother didn't live to read this horrible sentence.

I can only hope that I have learned this correctible error, and that my English will improve. Thanks for the help...

[Brad]

Don't be humiliated!

You probably won't make that mistake again either!

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I'm not aware of a rule that allows either the line
score/foul count or the indivdal player counts to take
precedence. (I will say if I'm not so sure about the
scorekeepers I'll tell them before the game that the line
score is the official score, not the individual score,
just to cover my a** in case this type of thing happens.
I do not believe I have a rule to back me up on this.)
[Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 11th, 2001 at 11:47 AM]

Buried deep within 2-11-11 (scorer's duties):
"If the discrepancy is in the score, and the mistake is not solved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Buried deep within 2-11-11 (scorer's duties):
"If the discrepancy is in the score, and the mistake is not solved, the referee shall accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook.

Thanks! 2-11-11, huh? Usually my head hurts so bad after
2-10 I just put the book down & take a nap!

[BktBallRef]

The running score is official. I don't think the RB stipulates which fouls are correct but I would think that since the personal fouls are entered and then the team fouls, I would go by the PF. I always have the scorer color in the 1st fouls at halftime.

[Mark Dexter]

I usually just skip 2-10, as I hate having to use illegal drugs to understand literature.