I'm feelin ornery

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Incredibly stupid points by Charley Rosen:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5505042

Key quotes:
"The worst basketball rule on any level is the NCAA's alternating possession on a held-ball situation. The only reason why this abomination exists is because the refs aren't capable of properly implementing the tosses for jump balls."

"I don't favor the restraining arc under the basket since it makes automatic blocks of too many obvious charging violations. (This is another rule that's become necessary only because of referees' incompetence.)"

"I'd also like to see two more refs assigned to each game, both of them in off-court stationary positions — perhaps in raised chairs as in tennis. Their jobs would be limited to calling three- and eight-second violations, goaltending, and illegal defenses."

I have no opinion with regard to Charlie's third recommendation. But he is on point concerning his first two recommendations.

MTD, Sr.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have no opinion with regard to Charlie's third recommendation. But he is on point concerning his first two recommendations.

MTD, Sr.

So, a guard makes a great play to tie up the ball with the opposing center, and you prefer to have those two jump it up instead of using an AP arrow? An official's ability to throw up a straight toss has NO BEARING on the change in this rule. The AP arrow has made the game a much better game.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

So, a guard makes a great play to tie up the ball with the opposing center, and you prefer to have those two jump it up instead of using an AP arrow? An official's ability to throw up a straight toss has NO BEARING on the change in this rule. The AP arrow has made the game a much better game.

If I remember correctly (and there's certainly no guarantee of that at my age), the NF did include some statement about inconsistency in "tossing" (no - not the British slang) being at least a partial factor in changing the rule and using the AP instead of the jump on tie-ups.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

If I remember correctly (and there's certainly no guarantee of that at my age), the NF did include some statement about inconsistency in "tossing" (no - not the British slang) being at least a partial factor in changing the rule and using the AP instead of the jump on tie-ups.

Yes, the NFHS did. But I thought then and still do that that it was a stupid excuse and not a good reason.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

So, a guard makes a great play to tie up the ball with the opposing center, and you prefer to have those two jump it up instead of using an AP arrow? An official's ability to throw up a straight toss has NO BEARING on the change in this rule. The AP arrow has made the game a much better game.

You state that: "An official's ability to throw up a straight toss has NO BEARING on the change in this rule." If that is the case, then the rules committees should get rid of the jump ball to start the game. By the way, if the game officials feel that the tossing official did not make a good toss, the toss can be called back and done over again.

MTD, Sr.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

So, a guard makes a great play to tie up the ball with the opposing center, and you prefer to have those two jump it up instead of using an AP arrow?

What has a guard's great play or poor play to do with the AP? Before you say the AP "rewards" great play you should note that 50% of the time it rewards the OTHER team.

[tomegun]

The jump to start the game is ridiculous most of the time because officials don't care enough. Players can time the majority of jump balls because of hitches (a slight dip before going up) in the tossing motion. A low toss is another reason jump balls are bad. Danny Crawford, a (gasp) NBA official uses a nice toss without a dip. I use two hands and go from a bounce straight up while I'm talking so the jumpers cannot steal the tip.

How many of us have a dip that allows our toss to be stolen?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

How many of us have a dip that allows our toss to be stolen?

Wouldn't a better question be "How many U's don't call a violation for a stolen toss?"

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Wouldn't a better question be "How many U's don't call a violation for a stolen toss?"

Here, here! Well said.

MTD, Sr.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Wouldn't a better question be "How many U's don't call a violation for a stolen toss?"

You got that right.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Wouldn't a better question be "How many U's don't call a violation for a stolen toss?"

I haven't called any stolen tosses, but I did call an horrendous toss back this weekend in the Boo Williams Tourney. Technically I shouldn't have b/c I was the U2, but the toss was so horrible and the U1 didn't blow his whistle so I had to step in on the that one.

Originally Posted by tomegun

...while I'm talking so the jumpers cannot steal the tip.

I talk also, but I don't bounce. I step into the circle and say "I'm going straight up" and as soon as I finish my sentence the ball is leaving my right hand...I'm a one-hand tosser (no smart remarks please )

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

The jump to start the game is ridiculous most of the time because officials don't care enough. Players can time the majority of jump balls because of hitches (a slight dip before going up) in the tossing motion. A low toss is another reason jump balls are bad. Danny Crawford, a (gasp) NBA official uses a nice toss without a dip. I use two hands and go from a bounce straight up while I'm talking so the jumpers cannot steal the tip.

How many of us have a dip that allows our toss to be stolen?

Obviously you don't know about the "dip fake!"

I dip my shoulder but then hold it until I'm ready to toss it, not when the bohemoths think i'm going to toss.

BTW, my crew called 7 jump ball violations on jumpers this year for getting the ball on the way up.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Obviously you don't know about the "dip fake!"

I dip my shoulder but then hold it until I'm ready to toss it, not when the bohemoths think i'm going to toss.

BTW, my crew called 7 jump ball violations on jumpers this year for getting the ball on the way up.

Who needs to fake anything?

I toss it like Tom does, 2 hands in mid-sentence but not off the bounce. I walk into the circle and get dirctly between them while saying something like "OK fellas, you ready to go? Don't hit me in the..." ball goes up "...head."

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

What has a guard's great play or poor play to do with the AP? Before you say the AP "rewards" great play you should note that 50% of the time it rewards the OTHER team.

How can you use that 50% stat? You odn't know for sure which play is rewarded in each situation. YOu can say there's a 50% chance EACH TIME that the OTHER team is going to be rewarded, but, for all you know, the great guard play could end up getting rewarded everytime.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

How can you use that 50% stat?

Geeze, well maybe because the alternating possession arrow actually *alternates* from team to team...and since there are only 2 teams to consider, 50% of the time the arrow will in fact be pointing at the OTHER team.