Raised hand - or not?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Danvrapp
Hmmmm....seems to be that most of you are agreeing with me--raise the hand. That's what I figured, but I wasn't sure if this was something that's begun to trickle down to the HS level, and I want to stay "trendy" without going against NFHS mechanic rules.

This "tip" aside, I did think the rest of the camp was great for me. It was geared toward the younger official (it was the first time they held this camp) being transistioned into 3-person mechanics, and they people there offered all kinds of great advice. So, I don't think it was against what I needed, I was just unsure about the hand thing, since so many clinicians mentioned it.

Hey Dan, no one asked you to get in the middle of our
pissing contest so bud out, OK???

[Danvrapp]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Hey Dan, no one asked you to get in the middle of our
pissing contest so bud out, OK???

That's what I've always loved about this forum--the comradity is amazing!

[stripes]

Ah, come on. Are you tellng me that a first year guy is comfortable enough with the rules & NF mechanics that he should be learning "advanced mechanics"? I don't believe that & I'm sure that you don't either. I also disagree strongly with the rest of your post but life is too short.

Life is too short to...? Continue a discussion? Help a young official? Offer your opinion? I thought that this is what the forum was for. I don't expect you necessarily agree with what I say, but I don't want you to just stop the discussion either.

I don't know if a 1st year guy is comfortable with the mechanics or not, but any first year official should want to learn more at a camp than wether or not he should raise his arm for an OOB call. If athleticism, stature, game awareness, game management, handling of coaches and players, judgement, concentration, focus, positioning, etc. are "advanced mechanics" then I think all officials would want to learn the "advanced emchanics" regardless of their comfort level with the authorized NF mechanics and rules.

AS an aside, I hope you don't think this is a "pissing contest", I feel strongly about my position, but never intend to offend or demean any other official. Maybe it comes off that way (damn this writing style ), but that is never the intent. If we can't agree, that's ok too. We'll agree to disagree.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The last time I read the NFHS and NCAA/CCA Manuals, which was about five minutes ago, the official will raise his arm and show a clenched fist for a foul and raise his arm and show an open hand for anything that is not a foul.

I am a member of IAABO's Visualization and Education Committee (which is chaired by Edgar Cartotto, Men's/Women's Supervisor, Northwest Conf.), and I can tell you that the NFHS and NCAA Rule Committees want officials to raise their hands per the Mechanics Manuals. The problem that those of us who are charged with instructing new and experienced officials is that too many camp administrators think that they are above the Rules Committees and want to teach unauthorized mechanics.

There is a reason for an official to raise his hand and to show either a closed fist or an open hand. And that reason is COMMUNICATION. Communication with his partners, the scorer/timer table, the players, and the coaches.

I can assure you that people like Edgar Cartotto or Peter Webb (IAABO President and two time member of the NFHS Rules Committee) and other people who are involved the education of basketball officials believe in doing it the correct way because there is only one way to officiate and that is the correct way.

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The last time I read the NFHS and NCAA/CCA Manuals, which was about five minutes ago, the official will raise his arm and show a clenched fist for a foul and raise his arm and show an open hand for anything that is not a foul.

I am a member of IAABO's Visualization and Education Committee (which is chaired by Edgar Cartotto, Men's/Women's Supervisor, Northwest Conf.), and I can tell you that the NFHS and NCAA Rule Committees want officials to raise their hands per the Mechanics Manuals. The problem that those of us who are charged with instructing new and experienced officials is that too many camp administrators think that they are above the Rules Committees and want to teach unauthorized mechanics.

Mark,
The exception noted in the manual for CCA Women is:

"There is no stop clock signal prior ro an out of bounds violation."

Would that mean that there is a stop clock signal after the violation occurs?
mick

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stripes

...I think all officials would want to learn the "advanced emchanics" regardless of their comfort level....

stripes,
Dan_Ref knows all that scientific stuff.
mick

[Brian Watson]

Is it me, or was the pissing contest comment a joke?? At least I took it that way.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
Is it me, or was the pissing contest comment a joke?? At least I took it that way.

Yes, it was a joke.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by stripes

...

I don't know if a 1st year guy is comfortable with the mechanics or not, but any first year official should want to learn more at a camp than wether or not he should raise his arm for an OOB call. If athleticism, stature, game awareness, game management, handling of coaches and players, judgement, concentration, focus, positioning, etc. are "advanced mechanics" then I think all officials would want to learn the "advanced emchanics" regardless of their comfort level with the authorized NF mechanics and rules.
...

Gee, I don't know where I said anything that disagrees with
any of this. But I am fairly certain you can find a camp
that focusses on HS mechanics, 2 or 3 man, and will also
help you grow in all the areas you mention. And they won't
tell you it's cool to not raise your hand. You aren't trying
to tell us that you need to go to a college camp for this
stuff, are you?

[Brian Watson]

Depending on the camp, it might be an overload of info for a rookie or someone with 2-3 years experience to go to a college camp. I think in general, camps will only help you no matter where or level they teach. If you arein the right frame of mind you can't help but improve. I think the bigger question is... are you maximizing your jack? If you are going to drop two or three bennies on a camp you should research all the options out there to ensure you are going to maximize your investment. You may have learned a ton at a college camp, but maybe you would have learned a ton and a half somewhere else for $50 buck less.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is not about using advanced mechanics. It is about using CORRECT mechanics and why good officials use CORRECT mechanics: COMMUNICATION. Read my posting of yesterday. In structural engineering there are design codes that I and my fellow structural engineers must following in designing structures so that these structures are safe for the public to use. Basketball rules and mechanics serve the same purpose in the game of basketball. Not stopping the clock is just plain laziness, and believe me officiating in not nearly as complicated as structural engineering.

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is not about using advanced mechanics. It is about using CORRECT mechanics and why good officials use CORRECT mechanics: COMMUNICATION. Read my posting of yesterday. In structural engineering there are design codes that I and my fellow structural engineers must following in designing structures so that these structures are safe for the public to use. Basketball rules and mechanics serve the same purpose in the game of basketball. Not stopping the clock is just plain laziness, and believe me officiating in not nearly as complicated as structural engineering.

Mark,
I agree with you regarding the proper mechanics per level.
And, I think, most officials, here, also agree.
Every chance I get, I rip on a partner who brings a college mechanic to the high school game. But as far as calling it "laziness", even "plain laziness", I don't think that's the case with my partners. For my partners I think it is 10% reflex and 90% showtime.

On the other matter, don't both structural engineering and hoops officiating require B.S.?
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is not about using advanced mechanics. It is about using CORRECT mechanics and why good officials use CORRECT mechanics: COMMUNICATION. Read my posting of yesterday. In structural engineering there are design codes that I and my fellow structural engineers must following in designing structures so that these structures are safe for the public to use. Basketball rules and mechanics serve the same purpose in the game of basketball. Not stopping the clock is just plain laziness, and believe me officiating in not nearly as complicated as structural engineering.

I agree the issue isn't "advanced" mechanics (I'm
kinda sorry now that I used that term to begin with).
As you say it's communication. But I don't think
not stopping the clock is laziness at the college level.
It's expected/required/cool. Not at all the case in HS.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick


...

On the other matter, don't both structural engineering and hoops officiating require B.S.?
mick

...as well as MS (more of same) and Ph.D.
(piled higher and deeper)

(BTW, I didn't mean to repeat what you said in my post.
I gotta learn to read everything before opening my yap!))

[stripes]

Glad the "pissing contest" thing was a joke. I took it that way, but then again, you never know...

But I am fairly certain you can find a camp that focusses on HS mechanics, 2 or 3 man, and will also help you grow in all the areas you mention. And they won't tell you it's cool to not raise your hand. You aren't trying to tell us that you need to go to a college camp for this stuff, are you?

You can find all kinds of camps and they will help in with all kinds of things, but only to certain degrees. I am trying to say that the overall quality of the instruction you will receive is much higher at a college camp. Why pay $$ for less than the best?

Depending on the camp, it might be an overload of info for a rookie or someone with 2-3 years experience to go to a college camp. I think in general, camps will only help you no matter where or level they teach. If you arein the right frame of mind you can't help but improve. I think the
bigger question is... are you maximizing your jack? If you are going to drop two or three bennies on a camp you should research all the options out there to ensure you are going to maximize your investment. You may have learned a ton at a college camp, but maybe you would have learned a ton and a half somewhere else for $50 buck less.

Just curious, how do you determine how to maximize your investment?