Billy Packer vs. Dick Vitale

[tomegun]

Can someone explain the reason coach K took his starters, or bench personnel, off the court and into the locker room before the end of the Florida State game? If it was a safety concern, the players on the floor didn't matter?

I must say, I'm totally shocked that Duke isn't in the easiest bracket. They normally are.

[jbduke]

Originally posted by 26 Year Gap


You pulled a bait-and-switch on me in bringing Knight into the discussion after starting with Calhoun, but it's an instructive example. My knock on Calhoun is that he hasn't been consistently excellent.

My knock on Knight is that he didn't prove to be adaptive at all. He won three titles in 12 seasons, then made only one Final Four in his last what, 13 seasons?

-----------------------------------------------------------

I am mildly surprised that you are disparaging the guy who gave Coach K his start in coaching.

Your knock on Calhoun is based in ignorance [as in lack of knowledge, not as in namecalling]. He was a consistent winner at Northeastern and I saw his club many times at UVM. He went to a fledgling UConn program that was in a doormat position in the Big East after it left the Yankee Conference. Yes it took a few years to build up the program, but let me ask you this: Is it easier to recruit a kid by saying 'We are ready to take the next step here. We are not on TV that often, but once we build up, we will be.' OR 'We are in one of the most storied basketball conferences in the country. You can count on national TV games when we play UNC & NC State and our conference from top to bottom is second to none.' ? And who do you suppose had a tougher job recruiting between Calhoun's start at UConn and the NIT championship? I think you know the answers to these questions but they are not important considerations as your tai chi would be disrupted.

Gap,

My argument wasn't that Calhoun didn't do a great job at Northeastern, nor was it that he had a trivial task in turning UConn into a power. As for your recruiting angle, though, the similarities between K's and Calhoun's situations are remarkable. You don't think that Calhoun was pitching to recruits the fact that they would have TV opportunities when they would play the likes of Georgetown, Syracuse and St. John's? When Calhoun got there in 1986, the Big East had won two of three national championships, and was within a whisker of three out five. I think recent success has a lot more to do with selling your school and its conference than history does, when it comes to getting the top players. Even if that's not exactly right, I'm willing to concede only a slight recruiting edge to K in his early years at Duke, especially given the pool of enrollable talent that he was drawing from, one much smaller than that of Calhoun. (Please don't misconstrue this last line. I'm not arguing that the admissions committee at Duke doesn't make exceptions for some of its athletes. I'm just saying that the pool is smaller)

An earlier poster made some comment like, "send K to Northeastern and see what happens." My reply is that, though it's not a one-to-one mapping, that K's success at Duke, in only his second head job, should serve to demonstrate that he could have built and sustained a program almost anywhere, even Northeastern.

As for Knight, that he was K's mentor does not make him a saint. My father gave me a large part of my "start," but that doesn't mean I think he's perfect. That being the case, I still don't understand why you're surprised that I would critique Knight.

[jbduke]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Jb, you really do see the world only through Dook-covered glasses, don't you?

I saw the game. I saw the replays. They all showed Laettner deliberately stepping on a player's chest. He shoulda been tossed- period. He surerashell did get off lucky on that one. And.....did Mr. Sportsmanship coaching him ever do anything about it- at that time or post game? Nope. The W was all that mattered to good ol' Coach K.

JR,

To answer a previous question, yeah, just finished my shrine to Coach K. $34,800 addition onto my house. I budgeted $40,000, which will pay for two years worth of K's designer incense. Very cool. I'd like to fly you down to worship with me sometime.


As for the Laettner incident, the tape of that game is part of the K liturgy, so I, too, have seen it, undoubtedly many more times than you. You'd have tossed him. Fine. But that does not address tomegun's point. He claimed two things with which I disagree:

1) Laettner "stomped" on Timberlake.
You yourself said "stepped on." It was a "tap." Call it a light tap, a medium tap, a hard tap, it makes no difference. That act probably imparted three pounds of force on Timberlake's. That's less force than a solid shove, and I'd love to know that you'd rule a shove a flagrant act. Hell, Tinnant's retaliation to Paulus yesterday was more vicious than Laettner's act, and I don't recall you calling for him to be ejected. The uniqueness of Laettner's act was what caused the uproar, not the viciousness of it. It was an arrogant, terribly unsporting act, but so are all sorts of things that don't draw nearly the attention that Laettner did.

2) tom claimed that Laettner "got away with it." A technical foul was called. How much more punishment do you want for an unsporting technical? How many other times in your life have you called for the ejection of a player for a non-fighting, unsporting act?

(It just occurred to me that if Timberlake had gotten up swinging, both likely would have been ejected. Timberlake's reaction tells me all I need to know about the violence inherent in Laettner's offense).

As for viewing everything through Duke-blue lenses, I don't see how you're in any position to critique here. You can't stand K, or Duke, so you're hardly more objective than I am on this.

By the way, is your shrine to old farts finished yet?

[BBall_Junkie]

Ineresting and fun debate as long as we keep it above board. Please help me to do so.

[jbduke]

Thanks for the reminder. Noted.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jbduke

As for viewing everything through Duke-blue lenses, I don't see how you're in any position to critique here. You can't stand K, or Duke, so you're hardly more objective than I am on this.

[/B]

Naw, believe it or not, it's not really the coach or the university. I can't stand the insufferable Dook fans that I run into.

One of their players could shoot somebody and you'd find some way to rationalize it away.

If it'll make you feel any better, there's other fans from other universities that piss me off just as much. It's the "my team can do no wrong" that gets to me. I critique all fans that are like that the same way. I'm kind of an equal-opportunity fanboy-hater.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Naw, believe it or not, it's not really the coach or the university. I can't stand the insufferable Dook fans that I run into.

One of their players could shoot somebody and you'd find some way to rationalize it away.

If it'll make you feel any better, there's other fans from other universities that piss me off just as much. It's the "my team can do no wrong" that gets to me. I critique all fans that are like that the same way. I'm kind of an equal-opportunity fanboy-hater. [/B]

I think it was the Chris Washburn incident that pushed me over the edge.

[jbduke]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

One of their players could shoot somebody and you'd find some way to rationalize it away.

[/B]

Ah, hyperbole. Truly a lost art.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by jbduke


Ah, hyperbole. Truly a lost art.

Yeah, but you've got to admit, "It's not stomped, it's stepped-on," does not make a great alumni license plate frame.

[jbduke]

Originally posted by bebanovich

Yeah, but you've got to admit, "It's not stomped, it's stepped-on," does not make a great alumni license plate frame.

nice one

[Forksref]

Originally posted by bebanovich

Yeah, but you've got to admit, "It's not stomped, it's stepped-on," does not make a great alumni license plate frame.

Hyperbole, a million times more fun than other figures of speech.

[bebanovich]

Originally posted by Forksref

Hyperbole, a million times more fun than other figures of speech.

Figurative language - it will, literally, blow your mind.

I just made that one up. If you don't get it, you are probably a sports announcer.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by jbduke
1) Laettner "stomped" on Timberlake.
You yourself said "stepped on." It was a "tap." Call it a light tap, a medium tap, a hard tap, it makes no difference. That act probably imparted three pounds of force on Timberlake's. That's less force than a solid shove, and I'd love to know that you'd rule a shove a flagrant act. Hell, Tinnant's retaliation to Paulus yesterday was more vicious than Laettner's act, and I don't recall you calling for him to be ejected. The uniqueness of Laettner's act was what caused the uproar, not the viciousness of it. It was an arrogant, terribly unsporting act, but so are all sorts of things that don't draw nearly the attention that Laettner did.

You have got to be kidding.

How hard the step/stomp was has absolutley nothing to do with it. Spitting on someone has no force. Does that make it any less of a disgusting act? You bring up Tinnant. In my view, stomping, kicking or spitting on an opponent is much more disrespectful, unsporting of an act that shoving someone.

The point is that it was an intentional, unsporting act that very easily could have been considered flagrant. Tinnant retaliated. Laettner instigated. Whether it was Christian Laettner, Rasheed Wallace, Juluis Hodges or Tim Duncan, stepping on an opponent who's lying defenseless on the floor is a punk thing to do. I can't imagine not ejecting any player that I saw do this.

[26 Year Gap]

The guy has 'duke' in his username, Tony. Unless you or anyone else agree with him totally and unabashedly then you are out to lunch.

[MajorCord]

[/B][/QUOTE]

I think it was the Chris Washburn incident that pushed me over the edge. [/B][/QUOTE]

I grew up in Hickory, NC. Washburn went to Hickory High. I've seen him around town in recent years a few times. What a waste!