Clock fails to start . . . redux

[assignmentmaker]

I realize this has been addressed before, but I would appreciate hearing your views on this one, (hopefully) last time.

Four seconds left in the game, Team B scores to go up 1. Team A is granted a timeout, after which play resumes with A1 making a throw-in from the baseline to A2 in Team A's backcourt. A2 dribbles quickly up the court, through pressure, and makes a layup just before the horn goes off. Ball goes in, Team A wins.

It was apparent to most everyone but, apparently, the officials, that the clock did not start for several seconds after the ball was caught by A2.

Under FED rules, and assuming the officials were aware the clock had not started, what were their options either:

1. while the play was going on, or

2. after the shot was made and, in this case, the horn sounded?

[Edited by assignmentmaker on Mar 3rd, 2006 at 04:26 PM]

[Rick82358]

Are we working a three amn or two man crew?
Not that it really matters.
Someone has got to be on the clock, during this situation. If the clock does not start in the back court you have definate knowledge of the time by the backcourt count.
On our crews with less than 10 seconds and a dead ball - someone should be counting so that there is knowledge in these situations.
These situations have to be covered in your pregame and reviewed durrin the time out so that you are on top of the situation.
Shame on the clock operator and the crew for not responding immediately.

The game should be stopped as soon as the error is noticed in this situation.

Then shoot the clock operator and get one who will work with you.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Rick82358
Are we working a three amn or two man crew?
Not that it really matters.
Someone has got to be on the clock, during this situation. If the clock does not start in the back court you have definate knowledge of the time by the backcourt count.
On our crews with less than 10 seconds and a dead ball - someone should be counting so that there is knowledge in these situations.
These situations have to be covered in your pregame and reviewed durrin the time out so that you are on top of the situation.
Shame on the clock operator and the crew for not responding immediately.

The game should be stopped as soon as the error is noticed in this situation.

Then shoot the clock operator and get one who will work with you.

Thanks for your comments. As it happens, I wasn't involved.

"The game should be stopped as soon as the error is noticed in this situation."

Then what?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

How did team B score? I always thought that the team that had the ball was team A?

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Whistles & Stripes
How did team B score? I always thought that the team that had the ball was team A?

I made the team that scored next-to-last Team B, and the Team that scored last Team A - since they were the team on offense when the play at issue took place. It could be the other way around, of course.

FYI, Team B scored a field goal on a short jump shot . . . Team A called time out . . . and then . . .

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
I realize this has been addressed before, but I would appreciate hearing your views on this one, (hopefully) last time.

Four seconds left in the game, Team B scores to go up 1. Team A is granted a timeout, after which play resumes with A1 making a throw-in from the baseline to A2 in Team A's backcourt. A2 dribbles quickly up the court, through pressure, and makes a layup just before the horn goes off. Ball goes in, Team A wins.

It was apparent to most everyone but, apparently, the officials, that the clock did not start for several seconds after the ball was caught by A2.

Under FED rules, and assuming the officials were aware the clock had not started, what were their options either:

1. while the floor play was going on, or

2. after the shot was made and,
a. before the horn sounded, or
b. after the horn sounded.

Can anyone give a concise, comprehensive answer to this (slightly modified) question?

[Edited by assignmentmaker on Mar 4th, 2006 at 10:43 AM]

[Snake~eyes]

I would stop it once he crossed the division line and taken off the necessary time.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
I would stop it once he crossed the division line and taken off the necessary time.

What if, by your 10-second count, 4 seconds had run off at the point you observe the clock to show 2 seconds remaining?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

What if, by your 10-second count, 4 seconds had run off at the point you observe the clock to show 2 seconds remaining?

In your OP you did not mention how much time remained when the TO was granted. I assume that by mentioning 2s above, this is how much time was left when the TO was granted.

Then you're saying that an official has definite knowledge that 4s elapsed. If so, the game is over. In fact, this official should have killed the play was declared the game over when it was apparent that more than 2s had elapsed.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

In your OP you did not mention how much time remained when the TO was granted. I assume that by mentioning 2s above, this is how much time was left when the TO was granted.

Then you're saying that an official has definite knowledge that 4s elapsed. If so, the game is over. In fact, this official should have killed the play was declared the game over when it was apparent that more than 2s had elapsed.

Let me clarify:

Team B scores to go up 1. Team A is granted a timeout with 4 seconds remaining in the game. Play resumes with A1 making a throw-in from the baseline to A2 in Team A's backcourt. A2 dribbles quickly up the court, through pressure, and makes a layup just before the horn goes off. Ball goes in, Team A wins.

It was apparent to most everyone but, apparently, the officials, that the clock did not start for several seconds after the ball was caught by A2.

Under FED rules, and assuming the officials were aware the clock had not started, what were their options either:

1. while the floor play was going on, or

2. after the shot was made and,
a. before the horn sounded, or
b. after the horn sounded.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Let me clarify:

Team B scores to go up 1. Team A is granted a timeout with 4 seconds remaining in the game. Play resumes with A1 making a throw-in from the baseline to A2 in Team A's backcourt. A2 dribbles quickly up the court, through pressure, and makes a layup just before the horn goes off. Ball goes in, Team A wins.

It was apparent to most everyone but, apparently, the officials, that the clock did not start for several seconds after the ball was caught by A2.

Under FED rules, and assuming the officials were aware the clock had not started, what were their options either:

1. while the floor play was going on, or

2. after the shot was made and,
a. before the horn sounded, or
b. after the horn sounded.

The proper thing to do is to blow it dead right away. Team A would then have a throw-in near where A2 was when the whistle went.

Once the game has progressed to #2, the officials have caused more pain than needs to be. IOW, they just gotta know about the clock, and deal with it immediately.

If an official kept a count after A2 touched the ball, that count can be used as definite knowledge to end the game without the final basket counting, providing that no whistle has already been sounded.

Previously you asked what is 2s show on the clock, but 4s had elapsed by the official's count. In that case, the game is over.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

The proper thing to do is to blow it dead right away. Team A would then have a throw-in near where A2 was when the whistle went.

Once the game has progressed to #2, the officials have caused more pain than needs to be. IOW, they just gotta know about the clock, and deal with it immediately.

If an official kept a count after A2 touched the ball, that count can be used as definite knowledge to end the game without the final basket counting, providing that no whistle has already been sounded.

Previously you asked what is 2s show on the clock, but 4s had elapsed by the official's count. In that case, the game is over.

"Once the game has progressed to #2, the officials have caused more pain than needs to be."

I'll say! But, that being said, is it your view that a score can be cancelled in either of the circumstances of question 2? If so, do you have a rules reference for this?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
"Once the game has progressed to #2, the officials have caused more pain than needs to be."

I'll say! But, that being said, is it your view that a score can be cancelled in either of the circumstances of question 2? If so, do you have a rules reference for this?

I do believe that the score could be cancelled, if certain criteria were met. I do not have my books with me, but it would be in the section (I think) dealing with timing mistakes.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

I do believe that the score could be cancelled, if certain criteria were met. I do not have my books with me, but it would be in the section (I think) dealing with timing mistakes.

I don't think there is a definitive ruling within Rule 5 on this issue.

Of the 6 Casebook plays in 'Timing Mistakes and Corrections', only 5.10.2 directly addresses failure of the clock to start properly, and then only when the error is addressed with the clock stopped because of a foul. In brief, the ruling says that, if one of the officials has definite knowledge of how much time ran off (e.g., a closely-guarded count was underway), the referee is empowered to take that amount of time off the clock.

Referring to the questions I asked earlier in this thread:

Question 1: Under FED rules and assuming the officials became aware the clock had not started, what were their options while play was going on, prior to A2's shot?

5-10-1 says " . . . The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved." This would appear to authorize the referee to stop the game, even with the ball alive and the clock running. In the scenario I have presented, however, doing so before the final shot by Team A would require Team A to inbounds the ball, a substantial, but perhaps unavoidable, harm. (Using this rule as justification has at least the complication that the rule references the 'referee' and not 'an official' - what if an umpire is the official with the count and the view of the clock?)

Question 2: Rolling back the game appears to be almost universally frowned on in the rules when the clock is running. One exception that comes to mind is 10.1.8, the 'Specific Unsporting Act' of improperly making a throw-in after a made basket and scoring again. Other than this, how can goals be cancelled, except by an 'elbow' or 'leaving the court deliberately' violation by the offense, and by goaltending or basket interference? Does anyone think that, were the referee to have been counting but not in a position to see the clock, a goal on a shot released after, by the referee's count, time had expired, can be cancelled?