When do players become bench personnel

[All_Heart]

Sit. 1
Do the five players on the court become bench personnel during timouts? If so when do they become bench personnel, when the timer is started?

Sit. 2
When a sub is at the table and is beckoned into the game, when does the player leaving the game become bench personnel?

Where is this in the rule book for both NFHS and NCAA.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by All_Heart
Sit. 1
Do the five players on the court become bench personnel during timouts? If so when do they become bench personnel, when the timer is started?

Sit. 2
When a sub is at the table and is beckoned into the game, when does the player leaving the game become bench personnel?

Where is this in the rule book for both NFHS and NCAA.

1) No.

2) When the sub is beckoned.

[All_Heart]

Thanks Bob. How about this one.

Team A calls a 60 second timeout. Players go to the bench. A6,A7,A8 & A9 check in at the table and return to the bench. Have these substitutes now become players and if not when do they become players?

[ChuckElias]

The subs become players when they legally enter the court. So when they are beckoned, or (if they are not beckoned) when the ball becomes live. The players being subbed out become bench personnel at that same time.

[All_Heart]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
The subs become players when they legally enter the court. So when they are beckoned, or (if they are not beckoned) when the ball becomes live. The players being subbed out become bench personnel at that same time.

So if during a timeout A6-A10 sub in for A1-A5. After the second horn the referee is about to put the ball in play to Team A.
(Sit A) A6 standing next to the official tells the official that "You suck!". This is a direct Technical on the player and an indirect on the Coach. He must now sit the rest of the game.
(Sit B) A1 sitting on the bench next to the coach yells across the court at the official telling him "You suck!" A1 is still considered a player so he gets a direct technical and the coach receives nothing even though that player is sitting on the bench right next to the coach.

Is this correct by rule? If so this just doesn't seem right, IMO.

[All_Heart]

Is my last post correct? I want to make sure I understand when players become bench personnel.

[Edited by All_Heart on Mar 3rd, 2006 at 09:03 AM]

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by All_Heart

So if during a timeout A6-A10 sub in for A1-A5. After the second horn the referee is about to put the ball in play to Team A.
(Sit A) A6 standing next to the official tells the official that "You suck!". This is a direct Technical on the player and an indirect on the Coach. He must now sit the rest of the game.
(Sit B) A1 sitting on the bench next to the coach yells across the court at the official telling him "You suck!" A1 is still considered a player so he gets a direct technical and the coach receives nothing even though that player is sitting on the bench right next to the coach.

Is this correct by rule? If so this just doesn't seem right, IMO.

Perhaps the answers to your questions are obvious to everyone but you and me . . . I'm interested!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by All_Heart
[/B]

So if during a timeout A6-A10 sub in for A1-A5. After the second horn the referee is about to put the ball in play to Team A.
(Sit A) A6 standing next to the official tells the official that "You suck!". This is a direct Technical on the player and an indirect on the Coach. He must now sit the rest of the game.
(Sit B) A1 sitting on the bench next to the coach yells across the court at the official telling him "You suck!" A1 is still considered a player so he gets a direct technical and the coach receives nothing even though that player is sitting on the bench right next to the coach.

Is this correct by rule? If so this just doesn't seem right, IMO. [/B][/QUOTE]Nope, it's not correct. You got 'em reversed.

Rule 4-34-3-- "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player....."

In SitA, A6 has legally entered the court. Therefore he has become a "player". If A6 now receives a "T", there's no indirect "T" charged to the head coach.

In SitB- A1 became bench personnel as soon as A6 legally entered the court. If he now receives a "T", his head coach will be charged with an indirect "T" also.

There is no prerequisite in either case for the ball to become live. That only applies to illegal substitutions.

NFHS rules.

NCAA rules use the same language, but I'm not sure if the head coach would get an indirect "T" in either case. NCAA technical foul rules are completely different from the FED ones..

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 3rd, 2006 at 08:06 PM]

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

So if during a timeout A6-A10 sub in for A1-A5. After the second horn the referee is about to put the ball in play to Team A.
(Sit A) A6 standing next to the official tells the official that "You suck!". This is a direct Technical on the player and an indirect on the Coach. He must now sit the rest of the game.
(Sit B) A1 sitting on the bench next to the coach yells across the court at the official telling him "You suck!" A1 is still considered a player so he gets a direct technical and the coach receives nothing even though that player is sitting on the bench right next to the coach.

Is this correct by rule? If so this just doesn't seem right, IMO. [/B]

Nope, it's not correct. You got 'em reversed.

Rule 4-34-3-- "A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player....."

In SitA, A6 has legally entered the court. Therefore he has become a "player". If A6 now receives a "T", there's no indirect "T" charged to the head coach.

In SitB- A1 became bench personnel as soon as A6 legally entered the court. If he now receives a "T", his head coach will be charged with an indirect "T" also.

There is no prerequisite in either case for the ball to become live. That only applies to illegal substitutions.

NFHS rules.

NCAA rules use the same language, but I'm not sure if the head coach would get an indirect "T" in either case. NCAA technical foul rules are completely different from the FED ones..

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 3rd, 2006 at 08:06 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

What about the status of the people on the bench during a timeout? Are the players still players and the bench personnel still bench personnel?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
[/B]

What about the status of the people on the bench during a timeout? Are the players still players and the bench personnel still bench personnel? [/B][/QUOTE]As Bob Jenkins said above, yes. There's no language saying otherwise. Also, there is supporting language in rule 10-1-9--"A team shall not fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission."

There is language in a case book play --10.4.1SitB- that says all team members are bench personnel during intermission, but they would still become players again as soon as they walk onto the court after the intermission ended. There is no similar language covering time-outs that I know of.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 3rd, 2006 at 08:35 PM]

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

What about the status of the people on the bench during a timeout? Are the players still players and the bench personnel still bench personnel? [/B]

As Bob Jenkins said above, yes. There's no language saying otherwise. Also, there is supporting language in rule 10-1-9--"A team shall not fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission." [/B][/QUOTE]

Say an official is addressed disrespectfully from the bench area during a timeout. For the purpose of penalty (Player Tehcnical vs. Bench Technical), should the official distinguish between a player and someone who is bench personnel?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

As Bob Jenkins said above, yes. There's no language saying otherwise. Also, there is supporting language in rule 10-1-9--"A team shall not fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission." [/B]

Say an official is addressed disrespectfully from the bench area during a timeout. For the purpose of penalty (Player Tehcnical vs. Bench Technical), should the official distinguish between a player and someone who is bench personnel? [/B][/QUOTE]Definitely - under NFHS rules imo.