Call it on the sound???

I had a situation in a summer league I'd like to throw out there for some comments. Late in the game, team A up by a few points, obvious fouling situation. On a missed free throw by A, A1 gets rebound, I am screened by other rebounders, my partner evidently did not see B1 reach in, but I hear the slap on A1's arm/hand, which could have been committed by anyone on team B. Is it right to blow the whistle and call the foul, or do we really need to see it? I did blow the whistle and just assessed the foul to the team B player of my choice. Any thoughts???

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Suppref
I had a situation in a summer league I'd like to throw out there for some comments. Late in the game, team A up by a few points, obvious fouling situation. On a missed free throw by A, A1 gets rebound, I am screened by other rebounders, my partner evidently did not see B1 reach in, but I hear the slap on A1's arm/hand, which could have been committed by anyone on team B. Is it right to blow the whistle and call the foul, or do we really need to see it? I did blow the whistle and just assessed the foul to the team B player of my choice. Any thoughts???

In baseball, I watch for the runner tag first and listen for the ball to hit the mitt. But in basketball, if I don't see it, I don't call it.

[Brian Watson]

Isn't the old adage "You can't call what you can't see?"

Good words to live by, and I would attribute it to someone, but I would just get corrected.

Pass on the call, unless you know for 100% certainty who comitted the crime.

[JeffRef]

Originally posted by Suppref
I had a situation in a summer league I'd like to throw out there for some comments. Late in the game, team A up by a few points, obvious fouling situation. On a missed free throw by A, A1 gets rebound, I am screened by other rebounders, my partner evidently did not see B1 reach in, but I hear the slap on A1's arm/hand, which could have been committed by anyone on team B. Is it right to blow the whistle and call the foul, or do we really need to see it? I did blow the whistle and just assessed the foul to the team B player of my choice. Any thoughts???

This is one situation where I would blow my whistle without actually seeing the play. Everybody but you knows a foul was committed and Team B wants the clock stopped anyway, so arguments are unlikely. As for who gets the foul...watch the players and pick the one who looks the most guilty.

A review of positioning on free throws might be necessary too...how could you both miss it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffRef
[B]

Originally posted by Suppref

A review of positioning on free throws might be necessary too...how could you both miss it?

Jeff, thanks for your input, all comments are appreciated. I was screened by the other rebounders, and am unaware of my partners intentions.

[twoblindrefs]

the pregame wasn't long enough!!!!

[Mark Padgett]

Haven't you ever had the situation where A1 is shooting and defender B1 claps his hands together? I have, quite a few times, I might add. If I am straightlined and my partner is watching his area, according to the logic of some of you, I should call this a foul on B1.

No way. If I don't see it, I don't call it. Remember the old adage: if it might of been a foul, it wasn't - if it might have been traveling, it wasn't, etc.

[JeffRef]

I still disagree!

In this particular case Team B is trying to stop the clock. If the slap on the arm isn't called, what will he do next...grab A1? push A1? Both of these lead to other problems.

So, in this situation I blow the whistle knowing I won't get any grief from anybody. If I don't blow, there may be a confrontation between players and I've got the coach screaming "what do we have to do to stop clock?"

I dunno. Maybe I'm just imagining the play differenty than the rest of you, but I'll stick with my call.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JeffRef
I still disagree!

In this particular case Team B is trying to stop the clock. If the slap on the arm isn't called, what will he do next...grab A1? push A1? Both of these lead to other problems.

So, in this situation I blow the whistle knowing I won't get any grief from anybody. If I don't blow, there may be a confrontation between players and I've got the coach screaming "what do we have to do to stop clock?"

I dunno. Maybe I'm just imagining the play differenty than the rest of you, but I'll stick with my call.

OK, you're taking an overall "game management" point of
view. I like that. So how about this: you call the foul
on B1, but everyone in the gym except you & your partner
sees that B2 is the slapper. You report B1, the scorekeeper
says "that's his fifth". Now the fun starts! I'm gonna
ignore the case where B2 didn't slap but merely clapped
his hands because you seem a little sensitive today, what
with all this metric-bashing and all.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

OK, you're taking an overall "game management" point of
view. I like that. So how about this: you call the foul
on B1, but everyone in the gym except you & your partner
sees that B2 is the slapper. You report B1, the scorekeeper
says "that's his fifth". Now the fun starts! I'm gonna
ignore the case where B2 didn't slap but merely clapped
his hands because you seem a little sensitive today, what
with all this metric-bashing and all.

I agree wholeheartedly (that's a metric heart by the way). How can you call a foul by sound? It is possible that rather than what you call

1. B1 clapped his hands
2. B1 caused contact with another player on his own team
3. It was B2 that caused the contact
4. It was the noise of A1 hitting his own hand on the rebound
5. B1 trying to foul, missing and hitting himself
6. Or any other variation of things

I don't understand how anybody can diferentiate between these noises, and therfore call the foul. I was always taught that if the referee didn't see it, it didn't happen.

I'm sorry, but as soon as you start calling stuff by sound, you add ammunition to the "three-blind-mice" tag that refs have. Maybe next game you can take the guide dog out, and he can point out offending players? Maybe by licking them?

No...here's an idea, take a white stick, blow the whistle for a foul, spin around with the stick in your hand, and the first player it touches gets the foul!

[JeffRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

OK, you're taking an overall "game management" point of
view. I like that. So how about this: you call the foul
on B1, but everyone in the gym except you & your partner
sees that B2 is the slapper. You report B1, the scorekeeper
says "that's his fifth". Now the fun starts! I'm gonna
ignore the case where B2 didn't slap but merely clapped
his hands because you seem a little sensitive today, what
with all this metric-bashing and all.

With good game management, I just don't see myself picking
the wrong player if everyone in the gym knows the guilty party.

But...keeping with the scenario I imagine I would do this:

I report B1 and everybody goes nuts cause I got the wrong guy! No big deal. I huddle with my partner(s) and say "Oops, I tanked that one, obviously the foul was on B2 and I made a reporting error (wink, wink!).

With the crew all on the same page, I correct my "reporting error" and assess the foul to B2. Everybody's happy but coach A. But he has no gripe cause it's the right call...I just reported it wrong and that's an easy sell.

As for the metric thing, nobody has responded to my request in the other thread yet. Maybe because the calculations are too difficult!

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by JeffRef

With good game management, I just don't see myself picking
the wrong player if everyone in the gym knows the guilty party.

But...keeping with the scenario I imagine I would do this:

I report B1 and everybody goes nuts cause I got the wrong guy! No big deal. I huddle with my partner(s) and say "Oops, I tanked that one, obviously the foul was on B2 and I made a reporting error (wink, wink!).

With the crew all on the same page, I correct my "reporting error" and assess the foul to B2. Everybody's happy but coach A. But he has no gripe cause it's the right call...I just reported it wrong and that's an easy sell.

As for the metric thing, nobody has responded to my request in the other thread yet. Maybe because the calculations are too difficult!

Now your saying that the crowd can have an influence on what (and how) you call. This goes against everything I hav eever been taught.

One way to look at this question is: What would your reaction be, if a referee told you (as a coach or player) that he didn't actuall see the contact, and called a foul by sound.

I reckon that this would p off 99% of people, even if the call was right. The whole concept of refereeing is that you watch the game, and call only what you see.

I still believe that there is just way too much margin for error in this one.

[Brian Watson]

There is an obvious one everyone has missed here.

When a player gets a good clear smack at the ball, it can/does sound like a smack on the arm.

There should be no reason to call a foul you did not see. The only thing worse is wacking B's coach for arguing the call.

This situation is why one of my pregame topics is players on the floor. Someone on the crew better damn well know how they got there.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JeffRef

With good game management, I just don't see myself picking
the wrong player if everyone in the gym knows the guilty party.

But...keeping with the scenario I imagine I would do this:

I report B1 and everybody goes nuts cause I got the wrong guy! No big deal. I huddle with my partner(s) and say "Oops, I tanked that one, obviously the foul was on B2 and I made a reporting error (wink, wink!).

With the crew all on the same page, I correct my "reporting error" and assess the foul to B2. Everybody's happy but coach A. But he has no gripe cause it's the right call...I just reported it wrong and that's an easy sell.

As for the metric thing, nobody has responded to my request in the other thread yet. Maybe because the calculations are too difficult!

OK, this is getting good. At the sound of skin on skin
you call the foul on B1 (poor guy did nothing to deserve
it). Report the foul, table holds up 5 fingers. Coach B
has a stroke. We huddle & you change the foul to B2.
Coach A has a stroke. You're really good so Coach A,
Coach B, B1 & B2 all escape without a T. Finally, Coach A
in frustration asks me "Dan, how could you let him do this
to me????!!" My answer: "Don't bother me now coach, I'm
trying to remember how many feet in a mile!"

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JeffRef
I still disagree!

In this particular case Team B is trying to stop the clock. If the slap on the arm isn't called, what will he do next...grab A1? push A1? Both of these lead to other problems.

How do you know he wasn't hit on the hand?