If a tree falls and... If a foul occurs and...

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Good point.....unfortunately. I have no comeback and also acknowldege that my chastisement was fair and deserving.
[/B]

Uh, JR, is that really you?

Hey, who took the grumpy ol' curmudgeon and left this apologizing, wimpy little poster?!? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yup, if this was JR, he'd have said to the OP, "You think too much.."

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
The original question reminds me of (sorry Padgett) an international soccer match a couple years ago. I can't remember if it was in the World Cup or the Olympics. But the ref called a penalty kick in the final minutes of the match, b/c (he claimed) the player was held while dribbling toward the goal. The guy made the penalty kick and his team won.

Well, the ref was blasted by everyone. Papers, TV, the guy became a national enemy of the team that lost. Then, about 3 weeks later, one newspaper ran a picture from an angle that no one had seen. And it clearly showed the guy's jersey being held and pulled while he was trying to dribble.

Nobody in the stadium or on TV saw the foul. But the ref did. He called it, took a lot of heat, and then was vindicated.

I think that might help to answer your question. Anybody remember what game that was?

Of course, I've got your back here Chuck.

U.S. Soccer’s Director of Advanced and International Referee Development Esse Baharmast was the Referee.

Here's a clip from an article about him that mentions the contest you inquired about:

"In addition to currently serving as an instructor and assessor, Baharmast was the first American to referee two games in a World Cup, when he did so at the World Cup in France in 1998. In a first-round game between Norway and Brazil he was widely criticized for a penalty kick call, but then later celebrated when photographers' photos showed the shirt-pulling that the TV cameras had not picked up."

Here is a good recap of the story. Give it look. It's a great read.

http://www.canoe.ca/SoccerWCNews/jul10_ref.html

[Spareme]

Originally posted by psycho_ref
I guess a lot of referees misinterpret ideologies and concepts like "the advantage/disadvantage" and "calling the obvious".

How do you misinterpret what you see?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Spareme
How do you misinterpret what you see?

Your eyes have never "played tricks" on you?

[Spareme]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Your eyes have never "played tricks" on you?

Lol. Yes, only when I'm without my Coke bottle eyeglasses.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by psycho_ref
If the shooter never felt it and doesn't think it is a foul then how can it be disadvantageous?

Someone will say, "how do you know he/she didn't feel it.

I used to do this trick with people to illustrate a point - I would get right up in front of them and put my fingertip ever so close to their nose. As I kept my finger there, about a millimeter from their nose, I would ask them if I'm touching them. Of course they would say no. Then I would say, "Yes I am", and point at my feet, which were up against their feet. The point being people sometimes concentrate so much on one thing, they're not aware of anything else. I think that's why many defenders look so amazed when a foul is called on them while they're trying to block a shot - they are concentrating so much on that ball, they're simply not aware their body collided with the shooter as well.

I guess my point in all this is don't take a player's word that they didn't feel contact - use your eyes to determine if contact occured, and if that contact caused the disadvantage.

[psycho_ref]

LOL. Thanks.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
I think that's why many defenders look so amazed when a foul is called on them while they're trying to block a shot - they are concentrating so much on that ball, they're simply not aware their body collided with the shooter as well.

Juulie once made this point a while ago. She just pointed out that the defenders usually truly believe that they did not contact the shooter. It's not that they're arguing whether or not the contact was a foul. They really believe that they "never touched him".

Realizing this has made dealing with the defender's outburst a little easier for me. I'm not sure why, but it has.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
I used to do this trick with people to illustrate a point - I would get right up in front of them and put my fingertip ever so close to their nose. As I kept my finger there, about a millimeter from their nose, I would ask them if I'm touching them. Of course they would say no. Then I would say, "Yes I am", and point at my feet, which were up against their feet. The point being people sometimes concentrate so much on one thing, they're not aware of anything else. I think that's why many defenders look so amazed when a foul is called on them while they're trying to block a shot - they are concentrating so much on that ball, they're simply not aware their body collided with the shooter as well.

I like this!! I don't know if I"ll use it in a game (lol!), but it's a good thing to think about.

However, it doesn't address whether the shooter feels the defender hit him. Usually, the shooter will have the opposite and feel contact when it doesn't exist, or when it's very slight.

If a shooter really, truly didn't feel anything, I'd probably be ruling it incidental contact.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by rainmaker
If a shooter really, truly didn't feel anything, I'd probably be ruling it incidental contact.

So, um, how do you do this? Do you blow the whistle first, then ask? Then, if they tell you they didn't feel anything, do you just say IW and go to POI? Or do just try to slide up next to the shooter and ask them unobtrusively during the play?

Just messin' with 'ya. All this talk about pudding has made me hungry and semi-grumpy.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
Just messin' with 'ya. All this talk about pudding has made me hungry and semi-grumpy.

Okay, you and JR can have that little table over in the corner, you get the blue chair with the puppy on the back, and JR can have the green chair with the kite. And please don't spill on the carpet!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Okay, you and JR can have that little table over in the corner, you get the blue chair with the puppy on the back, and JR can have the green chair with the kite. And please don't spill on the carpet!

I want the blue chair with the puppy on the back.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I want the blue chair with the puppy on the back.

No! I want the blue chair!

Nyah, nyah, Juulie likes me better!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

No! I want the blue chair!

Nyah, nyah, Juulie likes me better!

Then I'm gonna cut you into 742 pieces with those dull scissors that they give us to cut paper with, and I'm gonna bury all those pieces in the sand box.

And.....then I'll sit on the blue chair with the puppy on the back.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Then I'm gonna cut you into 742 pieces with those dull scissors that they give us to cut paper with, and I'm gonna bury all those pieces in the sand box.

And.....then I'll sit on the blue chair with the puppy on the back.

Ahh...His Curmudgeoness is back.

I'm taking my sippy cup and going home. You can have that ugly ol' blue chair anyways.