Running the Baseline - Extended??

[PGCougar]

Saw this last night and couldn't find any appropriate references.

After basket by B, A1 takes ball out of bounds. A2 jumps out of bounds and gets the pass by A1, but fumbles it sideways, ball rolls a couple of feet beyond the sideline area, but still behind the baseline. From there A2 gathers it up quickly and baseball passes it to A3 past the halfcourt line. Whistle blows - violation. At first I thought it was a 5 second violation, but when I spoke with the coach later, he was told the violation was because A2 made the throw outside of the boundary of the baseline.

Could someone please point me in the right direction? Thanks!

[BktBallRef]

There's really nothing it the rule book that addresses this. Therefore, I'd have to say that it would be legal.

[Adam]

Not a call I'm going to make.

[PGCougar]

That's interesting.

I assumed it was a violation but couldn't find a reference. Doesn't this create a slight advantage to the inbounder by changing the sightline and angles of the pass without the defender being able to chase the inbounder? All this asssumes there is space available on either side.

[mplagrow]

I don't see any advantage to that kind of position. If it were, coaches would be drawing up crazy plays to take advantage of it. I wouldn't touch that one.

[Adam]

It may or may not be an advantage. Maybe it should be a violation. However, there's no clear cut way to get to a violation with the rules. I'm not capable of the mental gymnastics necessary to get there, so I'm not calling it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Well, being an argumentive SOB.....

- Rule 7-5-7 sez that throw-in must be made "from any point outside the end line".
- Rule 1-1 sez that the high school playing court has ideal dimensions of 84' in length and 50' in width.
- Rule 1-2-1 sez "the playing court shall be marked with sidelines, end lines and other lines as shown on the appended diagram".
- The "appended diagram" is shown directly before Rule 1. That diagram shows the end lines terminating where they meet the sidelines, and it also shows that the optimum width of an end line is 50 feet.

Shazaam....the end line is 50 feet wide and the rules say you gotta make your throw-in from behind it. Ergo....it should be a violation.

Or should it?

This isn't listed as one of the throw-in violations under rule 9-2.

Good Lord! Edited to add that I just realized that I'm morphing into NevadaReferee.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 12th, 2006 at 03:25 AM]

[Adam]

JR, I think Merck is working on a drug that will stop that morphing process.

[mplagrow]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

- Rule 6-5-7 sez that throw-in must be made "from any point outside the end line".
- Rule 1-1 sez that the high school playing court has ideal dimensions of 84' in length and 50' in width.
- Rule 1-2-1 sez "the playing court shall be marked with sidelines, end lines and other lines as shown on the appended diagram".
- The "appended diagram" is shown directly before Rule 1. That diagram shows the end lines terminating where they meet the sidelines, and it also shows that the optimum width of an end line is 50 feet.

Now I'm going to memorize that documentation so I can rattle it off to the coach when I call it in a game. I'm sure he'll be duly impressed, and thank me for the well-thought-out explanation!

[PGCougar]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, being an argumentive SOB.....

- Rule 6-5-7 sez that throw-in must be made "from any point outside the end line".
- Rule 1-1 sez that the high school playing court has ideal dimensions of 84' in length and 50' in width.
- Rule 1-2-1 sez "the playing court shall be marked with sidelines, end lines and other lines as shown on the appended diagram".
- The "appended diagram" is shown directly before Rule 1. That diagram shows the end lines terminating where they meet the sidelines, and it also shows that the optimum width of an end line is 50 feet.

Shazaam....the end line is 50 feet wide and the rules say you gotta make your throw-in from behind it. Ergo....it should be a violation.

Or should it?

This isn't listed as one of the throw-in violations under rule 9-2.

Good Lord! Edited to add that I just realized that I'm morphing into NevadaReferee.

JR,

I don't have the most current rule book with me at the moment, but in an older version handy isn't the rule you quote 7-5-7, not 6-5-7? Irrespective of the actual number, the term is "outside" the end line as actually written in the rule book and it isn't nearly as clear as "behind" the end line as you concluded.

I coach ergo I am confused.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, being an argumentive SOB.....

- Rule 6-5-7 sez that throw-in must be made "from any point outside the end line".
- Rule 1-1 sez that the high school playing court has ideal dimensions of 84' in length and 50' in width.
- Rule 1-2-1 sez "the playing court shall be marked with sidelines, end lines and other lines as shown on the appended diagram".
- The "appended diagram" is shown directly before Rule 1. That diagram shows the end lines terminating where they meet the sidelines, and it also shows that the optimum width of an end line is 50 feet.

Shazaam....the end line is 50 feet wide and the rules say you gotta make your throw-in from behind it. Ergo....it should be a violation.

Or should it?

This isn't listed as one of the throw-in violations under rule 9-2.

Good Lord! Edited to add that I just realized that I'm morphing into NevadaReferee.

I've been told that I sometimes have that effect on people. If there isn't already, there definitely needs to be a cure for that. This world can't take two of me.

I too believe that this is a violation. I think that it is perfectly legal for the player to go fetch the ball over there, but that he must then return to within the 50 feet behind the end line and make the throw-in from there prior to the five seconds expiring.

No one is going to allow the player to turn the corner and run up the sideline OOB and make the throw-in from within the coaching box, right?
Therefore, the intent of "outside" the end line must be synonymous with "behind".

[Adam]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
No one is going to allow the player to turn the corner and run up the sideline OOB and make the throw-in from within the coaching box, right?
Therefore, the intent of "outside" the end line must be synonymous with "behind".

Your conclusion doesn't flow logically from your premise.
Even those who would extend the end line beyond the sideline would have a pretty easy time calling the violation once he steps across the extended endline.

If I can't justify calling the violation once he steps beyond the extended sideline, I can't justify calling the violation just because he throws it from over there.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Your conclusion doesn't flow logically from your premise.
Even those who would extend the end line beyond the sideline would have a pretty easy time calling the violation once he steps across the extended endline.

While I agree with you have said for the end line extended thinkers, I wasn't attempting to speak to those people. I believe that the end line is 50 ft in length as it says in the rules book and therefore my logic is different. If a player is OOB in front of the scorer's table, is inside or outside of the end line? I have to say that the answer is neither. Since he is off the court OOB, and I don't believe that the end lines extend past the sidelines, then this question simply isn't applicable. This location is undefined with respect to the end line.

Originally posted by Snaqwells

If I can't justify calling the violation once he steps beyond the extended sideline, I can't justify calling the violation just because he throws it from over there.

You can't justify calling a violation on a player for just being over there during this throw-in because there is no rule which prohibits it. However, you do have a rule which states from where the throw-in must be made, so you can justify calling the attempted throw-in from that location a violation.

IOW your premise and conclusion don't logically follow imo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by PGCougar
[/B]

JR,

I don't have the most current rule book with me at the moment, but in an older version handy isn't the rule you quote 7-5-7, not 6-5-7? Irrespective of the actual number, the term is "outside" the end line as actually written in the rule book and it isn't nearly as clear as "behind" the end line as you concluded.

I coach ergo I am confused. [/B][/QUOTE]Yup, shoulda been 7-5-7. Good catch; I went back and changed it.

I think that you have to view "outside" and behind " as synonymous(good word, Nevada) in this case. If you took the meaning of "outside" differently, then by rule the throw-in would have to be legally made "outside" the conjunction of the sideline and end-lines-- iow, it would then be "behind" a sideline and "outside" the endline. I don't think that's what the NFHS intended.

Does that help your confusion?

Heeheeheeheehee......

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 12th, 2006 at 03:43 AM]

[Nevadaref]

JR, you're having way too much fun with this.

GREAT to have you back!