did I do this right?

[CaliOne]

Pre-game: I was the R. Partner and I discussed above rim play and reminded the point that trail will cover that. OK.
Varsity boys game, 1st quarter. A1 breaks away from 1/2 court, with 3 defensive players close behind, all running full speed. A1 goes up for a dunk, get above rim when the ball slips out of him hands and bounces above backboard. He grabs the rim and hangs there for 2 seconds swinging back and forth a couple times. I was trail. Partner at lead blows whistle with his fist up. I thought he had a foul. He then immediately signals a T. He's on his way to report and I head him off and ask him what he had. He said, "automatic T for hanging on the rim" I, knowing better, said he was protecting himself and the other players around him by holding onto the rim. I wasn't going to let him give the T, and after a little discussion, I convinced him to give it up. So I went to the table and told coaches. The A coach was releived, because he thought A1 was protecting himself. B coach didn't hear right away that I wasn't going to let my partner call a T, so when I told him "NO T" and we are going with the possession arrow for inadvertant whistle, he threw his clipboard down, yelling and threw himself back in his chair, with his hands up, stomping his feet. I looked at him, blew my whistle and gave him a T. 3 guys from the B team crowd stood up and ran down off the bleachers like they were going to kick my *** or something. I just stood there, and game management stood in, so noone actually came onto the court. They obviously didn't like that T. I administered the freethrows while my partner explained it to the coach. After the freethrows I went to the coach and he didn't want to hear my explanation, so we threw in and the game went on from there with no further problems. Long story, any input for me?

[blindzebra]

The coach sees the official closest to the play...and with the best view if the player hanging could have landed safely...call a T.

They see you come in and overrule the call, and then you come over to tell him he's not getting the T. Being that you wrote, "I wasn't going to let him give the T," I'd bet the coach saw it as you changing the call and that got reinforced by you telling him no T.

R or not, the most you should have come in with was, "Partner ya think he was protecting himself?"

After that your partner makes the call on changing it, and if he does HE should be explaining the change to the coaches.

You came off looking like alpha-ref and the coach acted accordingly, IMO.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by CaliOne
Pre-game: I was the R. Partner and I discussed above rim play and reminded the point that trail will cover that. OK.
Varsity boys game, 1st quarter. A1 breaks away from 1/2 court, with 3 defensive players close behind, all running full speed. A1 goes up for a dunk, get above rim when the ball slips out of him hands and bounces above backboard. He grabs the rim and hangs there for 2 seconds swinging back and forth a couple times. I was trail. Partner at lead blows whistle with his fist up. I thought he had a foul. He then immediately signals a T. He's on his way to report and I head him off and ask him what he had. He said, "automatic T for hanging on the rim" I, knowing better, said he was protecting himself and the other players around him by holding onto the rim. I wasn't going to let him give the T, and after a little discussion, I convinced him to give it up. So I went to the table and told coaches. The A coach was releived, because he thought A1 was protecting himself. B coach didn't hear right away that I wasn't going to let my partner call a T, so when I told him "NO T" and we are going with the possession arrow for inadvertant whistle, he threw his clipboard down, yelling and threw himself back in his chair, with his hands up, stomping his feet. I looked at him, blew my whistle and gave him a T. 3 guys from the B team crowd stood up and ran down off the bleachers like they were going to kick my *** or something. I just stood there, and game management stood in, so noone actually came onto the court. They obviously didn't like that T. I administered the freethrows while my partner explained it to the coach. After the freethrows I went to the coach and he didn't want to hear my explanation, so we threw in and the game went on from there with no further problems. Long story, any input for me?

I take it you ended up going on the arrow because, at the point of the inadvertent whistle, the ball had either not been rebounded or was dead because it had struck out of bounds ("ball slips out of him hands and bounces above backboard.")

In either case, I can only commend you. No good deed will go unpunished, however, as the crowd was apparently hell-bent on proving. How many times are coaches going to have to hurt their own teams before they learn not to? Answer is . . . blowing in the wind.

[Kelvin green]

Talk with your partner but dont convince him and then you do it.

Ask him what he saw,a nd clarufy the rule but even you state the guy way swinging. MOst of the time a guy hanging on the rim to protecet himself doest swing wildly.

Its on a breakaway. You never state where you were at when this happened. Unless you were with them and in good position it may have been lead's call.

Dont get wrapped up in the I am R and trail always has above the rim, because there are times when lead has it and this may be the case.

Did your partner stop look where you were at (or knew where you were at) and knew he had to make the call?

[robertclasalle]

I give you a lot of credit for talking to your partner to try to get the call right. I also give you credit for issuing a tech foul when it was warranted. I don't think it would have mattered if your partner overruled himself or, as it happened, that you helped him do it. The other coach's behavior was wrong, that's a separate event with a separate result. Good job. The only thing that went wrong here was the coach's reaction, not your fault.

[CA BBall Ref]

Just curious about why you considered this act "above rim play and reminded the point that trail will cover that." All of the bodies in this act were not above the rim. Lead should have a great view of the situation. If "he grabs the rim and hangs there for 2 seconds swinging back and forth a couple times." That seem very possibly to be excessive. Were you right to T the coach for his over the top act? Yes. Did the coach have a very valid point? Yes. As the R you will be responsible for the pre-game, some techincal items at the table. During the game you are responsible for the toss, quarter inbounds, decide if a goal shall count if officials disagree, forfeits, scoring & timing errors & "shall make decions on any points not specifically covered in the rules." Rule 2-6 states that "No official has the authority to set aside or question decions made by the official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties. It does not give you the superpower to change your partners judgement. Don't get hung up on being the R.

[CaliOne]

Thank you all for your feedback. It has been very helpful. I think my point about me being the R, if anything was the fact that my partner is a 2nd year official and needed a lot of help. He did better than I have ever seen him in this game and told him that. When he was going to report a T for hanging on the rim, when I asked him about what he was going to call, he said it was an automatic T for hanging on the rim, so to me, he didn't know it was ok to hang if the player was protecting himself of others. So, maybe I should have explained it better to him at the time and let him make the decision.

[zebracz]

yo. my first question: did you make the sitch worse? could it have easily been arguable either way? Coach A may have been just fine w/ your P's Tech? (just sumthin to think about.) However, I'd have to see this one, to really know but, here's what you say:

Originally posted by CaliOne
"...A1 breaks away from 1/2 court, with 3 defensive players close behind, all running full speed. A1 goes up for a dunk, get above rim when the ball slips out of him hands and bounces above backboard."

question2: did the ball go out of bounds? (oob) Or, did the ball go up and up, til A1 waited for it to come down, so he hung on the rim, to try to re-secure control of the ball so he could dunk? I mean, was it a fumble or a turn over? IMO, if (as above) he was hanging on it and trying to stay up to re-gain control, you (or your P) would've needed quick judgment; A1 MAY STILL HAVE NEED to hang on the rim to protect himself as you stated:
"3 defensive players close behind, [were] all running full speed."

question3: where were you (as was asked above?) Can you tell from where you are that as he:
"grabs the rim and hangs there for 2 seconds swinging back and forth a couple times,"

(can you tell) that this swinging is excessive? Could your P tell that this was excessive?

W/ such a Partner, you may have needed to better cover Techs in your pregame. This may have all been a clean-mess rather than an ugly-mixed-up mess, if your P had come to you (or you'd have come together as soon as he signals his T.)

Then you say he: "at lead blows whistle with his fist up. I thought he had a foul. He then immediately signals a T. He's on his way to report and I head him off and ask him what he had."

IMO be very cautious in these sitch's. You can do very well to help a young ref out. Tell him, "NICE CALL," first, before you say or do anything else. then say, "hey let's talk about this one for a min before you report." Then take care of all the players--send them to their benches so that that occupies the coach's time--who can coach. then ask him what he saw. see if he wants to know what you saw. ask him for the ruling. f@$k everyone else--you can take your time, to get it right, right? if he doesn't know the rule, tell him what it is, etc, etc. Don't bother w/ discussing 'trail/lead' ideals until after, in your postgame. AND, then, in your postgame, be sure to say something like, "hey, we sure learned a lot on this one, tonight, eh?" and then discuss it, further, so that when he (and you) have this same sitch again, you know what you'll do. Good job, though, CaliOne.

question4: You said you: "went to the table and told coaches."
In this type of major overruling (or call-change,) you've got to bring both coaches together AT THE SAME TIME, IN FRONT OF THE TABLE, to admin it to them BOTH together. Odds are CoachB isn't going to react like an a$$hole AND you don't hafta ding him. Yes, he still won't be happy, but you are at least doing your best effort and using your best game-management skills to diffuse any ugly sitch. Then, you all are off to 'play ball!' right?

My concern though was this: (you said) "B coach didn't hear right away that I wasn't going to let my partner call a T,"
Admin it the above way and there should be noway CoachB doesn't know what's going on. Plus you look and seem fair when you tell them both together. you can say something like this, "Guys (or Coaches,) you aren't going to like what I say," and make sure your P is w/ you--saying nothing though--"but," as you continue, "this is what we've got." And then calmly and professionally lay it out for them, looking each of them in the eyes, k?

Then you say you went w/ "the possession arrow for inadvertant whistle, he threw his clipboard down, yelling and threw himself back in his chair, with his hands up, stomping...[yada yada yada]."

question5: you went possession arrow? Was the ball dead? Why not go, POI? It was oob off of A1, right? Team B's ball! Then there are no extra free throws, no Techs, AND no pissed TeamB fans! (Sounds a little easier, right?)

You said: "I administered the freethrows while my partner explained it to the coach. After the freethrows I went to the coach and he didn't want to hear my explanation;"

IMO, why would YOU go to the coach, if your P already was explaining to him, in the first place? Stay away from there. Seeing your face again, only incites him, reminds him, and causes further confrontation. IMO, never go back to a coach and bring up any past ruling, judgment, or call, etc. It invites the above-mentioned, confrontations, incitations, reminders, etc. Plus, what more could you possibly do or say to make it right? We as officials can't make it better, esp all better. It's best to just forget and go on--going back doesn't allow the coach to forget and go on. Instead, let him start thinking (and keep thinking) about the rest of the game. He should be w/ his team coaching, right? If he wants you to say more about it (later on?), let him ask you (later on.) If he wants to bring it up, fine. And there ya go, have at it--say what you need--or not need. Make sense?

Well, done though. My ideas may only be another way to help manage that sitch. Good job, well done, and keep it up.

[CaliOne]

Thanks bro! Oh, I mean Zebracz. I'm gonna have to read that one a couple of times and get back to ya! see ya.

[ace]

"s a 2nd year official and needed a lot of help."

Had you worked with him before or basing the need for help off of what you've heard? If this official got a Varsity game, chances are someone thought he earned it, and was capable of working it.

I'm a 3rd year official. My parnters turned the R duties over to me, and they have both been officiating about as long or longer than I have been alive. I was very much STFU even though I was the R. R don't mean mud once that ball goes in the air as far as play selection goes.

Another thing, let him live and die with it. All you can do is remind him of the rule, and let him make up his mind. I've learened my lesson about technicals, only way to do that was to have actually did it myself.

[zebracz]

..thought you're gonna get back to me? lol

[CaliOne]

To answer your question, Ace: I have worked with him a lot (some jr. high games we do). How did you guess that? your good! I took more of a leadership role with him, because I beleive he isn't experienced enough for most varsity games. However, we had a great pre-game and like I said in the first post, he did a great job, which surprised me. I'm only a 5 yr ref, and I don't think I'm necessarily ready to be the more experienced ref, in an upper division varsity game, although experiences like this are making me ready for that. I do agree that maybe I should have let him "live or die by the play". In my first post I said I wasn't going to let him call the T. That really isn't what I meant. I mean I was thinking that, but I asked him what he had, told him what I saw and told him I dont think you should call a T. (MY opinion, right). He said, well since you are the R, I'll let you make that decision. So that's how all this R stuff came up. Anyway, thanks for your input, its well taken.

[CaliOne]

I'm still reading your post ZEZBRACZ! lol

[zebracz]

Originally posted by CaliOne
I'm still reading your post ZEZBRACZ! lol

JK, you don't hafta...we already talked it about it, right?

[bgtg19]

I think you were right to "head him off" on the way to the table. You asked the right question: "What do you have?" He responded: "Automatic T." This is where I think the whole approach should have been different. Instead of: "I, knowing better, said he was protecting himself," you might try the following approach: "The T isn't 'automatic' if he was protecting himself. Did you see the players under/around him?" Maybe he saw them, maybe he didn't. You then might have tried: "Look, from my perspective I thought he was protecting himself and I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But this is your call and I'll support you no matter what call you make. What are you going to report to the table?"

If your partner says that he's going to stick with the T, you say: "I like your fortitude. Go give it to him." If your partner says that he thinks maybe he shouldn't give the T, you say: "Then let's talk about how we're going to handle it. Since you made the call, I think it's better if you go report it. Just stand in front of the table, at your normal reporting position, and say in a loud, firm voice, 'There's no T because the player was protecting himself on the rim. We're going to the alternating possession arrow because of the inadvertant whistle.' and then let's get the ball back in play."

That's just a suggestion for an alternative approach. I agree with the others who have said that this is not an "overrule" area and thus the original caller ought to be making the "change," if there is one. Even though your desire to protect a second-year guy is admirable, I think you'll end up helping him more by helping him learn how to handle himself, rather than learn how to be handled.

Given the way it did happen, I absolutely agree that you had to give Coach B the technical foul he earned. I don't think your partner should have been over explaining anything to the coach during the FT administration -- what is there to explain? Everyone saw what happened. I also don't think you should have gone over to the coach after the FT, particularly not without an invitation/request.

I disagree with zebracz when s/he says: "In this type of major overruling (or call-change,) you've got to bring both coaches together AT THE SAME TIME, IN FRONT OF THE TABLE, to admin it to them BOTH together." That might be the right approach, but it might not be. In our area, we had an experienced official in a similar situation to the one you described. He was L and blew his whistle to call a T on a player hanging on the rim. His C approached the L and told him that he (the C) thought the player was protecting himself. The L did not agree but, on the theory that his partner would only approach him if he was 100% sure of himself, he decided to wipe off the T. He went to the table and called both coaches to come over to hear his explanation. One coach wouldn't come. That coach knew what was about to happen and he didn't want to hear it. As it turned out, the L ended up needing to call a T on the uncooperative coach. In a sense, requesting something of someone who you know is going to be unhappy can be an invitation to disaster. Anyway, the point is that it is not ALWAYS the right idea to call everyone together.

Thanks for posting the situation. We can all learn from going over this stuff.