The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 10:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 48
Short and sweet: A-1 stops his dribble, as he starts to pass to A-2, his teammates makes a back door move toward the basket. The ball has already left A-1's hands. Question, If A-1 runs to the ball and touches or possesses the ball, is this legal or a violation?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 10:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Frisco (Dallas), Texas
Posts: 167
Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
Short and sweet: A-1 stops his dribble, as he starts to pass to A-2, his teammates makes a back door move toward the basket. The ball has already left A-1's hands. Question, If A-1 runs to the ball and touches or possesses the ball, is this legal or a violation?
If the ball touches the court after the pass, then A1 touches it - Illegal Dribble.

If the ball does not touch the court after the pass, then A1 touches it - Traveling.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 10:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 48
Why would that make a difference? Seems to me if this was true, then there is no such thing as double dribble. A player who has stopped his dribble then simply throws a pass to a "spot" on the floor and lets it touch the floor and then goes and retrives the ball.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 10:55am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Frisco (Dallas), Texas
Posts: 167
Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
Why would that make a difference? Seems to me if this was true, then there is no such thing as double dribble. A player who has stopped his dribble then simply throws a pass to a "spot" on the floor and lets it touch the floor and then goes and retrives the ball.
I think you misunderstood my answer. It's a violation either way.

As you put it, "A player who has stopped his dribble then simply throws a pass to a "spot" on the floor and lets it touch the floor and then goes and retrives the ball," has committed an Illegal Dribble.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 11:11am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 48
My Bad

I understand....either way it is a violation. Thats what I thought also...Can we find this mentioned in the rule book or case book. I have looked and can not find it..Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 11:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Frisco (Dallas), Texas
Posts: 167
Re: My Bad

Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
I understand....either way it is a violation. Thats what I thought also...Can we find this mentioned in the rule book or case book. I have looked and can not find it..Thanks
I'll see if I can find a case situation this afternoon. The Texas Association of Sports Officials (TASO) had the same question on their examine this year. They did not clarify whether the ball touched the court after the pass was made. I beleive the assumption was that it did touch the court resulting in an Illegal Dribble.

Other than a general knowledge of the traveling rules, I have no support when I say, if the pass does not touch the court and the player runs to retrieve it in the air, it is a travel.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 11:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 944
Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
Short and sweet: A-1 stops his dribble, as he starts to pass to A-2, his teammates makes a back door move toward the basket. The ball has already left A-1's hands. Question, If A-1 runs to the ball and touches or possesses the ball, is this legal or a violation?
If A1 is passing to A2, and A2 doesn't get it and A1 gets his own pass, what you have is B's whole team sleeping on the job.

Could this have been a fumble? Or is the pass so far away that there is no other interpretation possible?

It seems to me that if A1 just dropped the ball while passing, he would be able to recover it, but not dribble again, while if there was an actual pass, someone other than him should be able to beat him to the ball or it would go out of bounds.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 12:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,448
Quote:
Originally posted by Jimgolf
It seems to me that if A1 just dropped the ball while passing, he would be able to recover it, but not dribble again, while if there was an actual pass, someone other than him should be able to beat him to the ball or it would go out of bounds.
There'sa difference between dropping the ball, fumbling the ball and passing the ball (and then, in each case, retrieving the ball).

Dropping and Passing are intentional acts -- recovering the ball is a dribble (assuming the ball hits the floor).

Fumbling the ball is an Accidental act -- recovering the ball is always legal.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 02:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 508
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Jimgolf
It seems to me that if A1 just dropped the ball while passing, he would be able to recover it, but not dribble again, while if there was an actual pass, someone other than him should be able to beat him to the ball or it would go out of bounds.
There'sa difference between dropping the ball, fumbling the ball and passing the ball (and then, in each case, retrieving the ball).

Dropping and Passing are intentional acts -- recovering the ball is a dribble (assuming the ball hits the floor).

Fumbling the ball is an Accidental act -- recovering the ball is always legal.
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Jimgolf
It seems to me that if A1 just dropped the ball while passing, he would be able to recover it, but not dribble again, while if there was an actual pass, someone other than him should be able to beat him to the ball or it would go out of bounds.
There's a difference between dropping the ball, fumbling the ball and passing the ball (and then, in each case, retrieving the ball).

Dropping and Passing are intentional acts -- recovering the ball is a dribble (assuming the ball hits the floor).

Fumbling the ball is an Accidental act -- recovering the ball is always legal.
Bob: Fed 4-21 defines a fumble as: " . . . accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player's grasp." It includes 'drops', and that has always puzzled and concerned me.

I have an alternative definition to propose: accidental failure to attain player control of the ball when receiving a pass or maintain player control when ending a dribble.

Admittedly, this is far more directed definition - but I think it covers the circumstances that should be covered and eschews those that shouldn't.

Consider this situation: A1, holding the ball and having not dribbled, is being closely guarded by B1. Leaning to avoid the pressure, A1 unintentionally drops the ball on the floor and immediately picks it up. Has A1 fumbled or dribbled? Under 4-21, this could be a fumble, could it not? But that would penalize the defense, protect the offense from its own poor play.

And this situation: A1 attempts to end her dribble in one motion by grasping and passing the ball to a teammate. In the official's judgement, she controls the ball but then loses control and flubs the pass. My definition makes it explicit that a flubbed pass is not a fumble. 4-21, at best, only implies that.

I'll be back. I'm going to put on my protective headgear. (I know, illegal equipment . . .)

__________________
Sarchasm: the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 03, 2006, 05:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Irving, Texas
Posts: 675
Quote:
Originally posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
Quote:
Originally posted by VaCoach
Short and sweet: A-1 stops his dribble, as he starts to pass to A-2, his teammates makes a back door move toward the basket. The ball has already left A-1's hands. Question, If A-1 runs to the ball and touches or possesses the ball, is this legal or a violation?
If the ball touches the court after the pass, then A1 touches it - Illegal Dribble.

If the ball does not touch the court after the pass, then A1 touches it - Traveling.
Not to be horsey, but it is an illegal dribble for both situations. There is only one way to travel without the ball. You are correct, either way it is a violation.
Credit to NevadaRef for teaching me the difference.
__________________
- SamIAm (Senior Registered User) - (Concerning all judgement calls - they depend on age, ability, and severity)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:36pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1