Duke vs. BC

[Nate1224hoops]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

First, since when do officials sit in the rafters or on top of the backboard to make a call.

Second, yes, there was contact. But contact alone is not a foul. This contact was created by the shooter, not by the defender who jumped straight up.

If you watched the clip you didnt see Williams jump straight up. He was moving into the offensive player. The rule of verticality was broken as well. We keep ignoring all the lower body contact. WHY?? Some say it was initated by the offensive player...what? Watch the clip again, Williams is moving into him when he jumps.

[Nate1224hoops]

Dickie V hit the nail on the head after the game when he said that had that been any other player in the country it's a foul. Williams is known for his shot blocking ability and gets more leeway than most. Had that been Dockery, Reddick, McRoberts, or Paulis who did the exact same thing, I guarantee a foul would have been called. As for me looking at it from a fans point of view, your all wrong. I am a Duke fan, have been for 21 years. IMO the officials missed that call. Would Duke have won even if the call is made?? Probably.

[Red_Killian]

Look at where the officials are, both the C and L are in good position, the L better to watch Williams, the C having the drive from his primary. I still agree no call was correct. If Williams indeed jumped into him wouldn't the contact be on the upper part of the body. Instead it is on the lower part as the offensive player tries to twist around the vertical defender.

As far as Dickie V, we all know how much he understands the rules and that he is always the officials' best friend.....right.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
If you watched the clip you didnt see Williams jump straight up. He was moving into the offensive player. The rule of verticality was broken as well. We keep ignoring all the lower body contact. WHY?? Some say it was initated by the offensive player...what? Watch the clip again, Williams is moving into him when he jumps.

Sorry but I disagree. I guess we know why those guys are working D1 and you aren't.

[refTN]

Originally posted by Nate1224hoops
Dickie V hit the nail on the head after the game when he said that had that been any other player in the country it's a foul. Williams is known for his shot blocking ability and gets more leeway than most. Had that been Dockery, Reddick, McRoberts, or Paulis who did the exact same thing, I guarantee a foul would have been called. As for me looking at it from a fans point of view, your all wrong. I am a Duke fan, have been for 21 years. IMO the officials missed that call. Would Duke have won even if the call is made?? Probably.

If it would have been anybody but Sheldon, that kid is putting his nuts in all those other kids face while he his hanging on the rim. The kid had to alter his shot just to try to get it over Sheldon. Sheldon does nothing wrong except maybe bring his arm forward a little bit to block the shot and the kid thwarted any attempt of that happening by using his off arm to deflect it. This was a great play that looked ugly, because of the kid hitting the floor. This play was borderline at best, and if it is borderline, marginal, or inconclusive it is nothing and play on.

[JCrow]

I'm 100% unbiased as the last time I rooted for BC (other than Doug Flutie)...Terry Driscoll was playing and Duke is well....D..D...DUKE.

I saw it 110 times after work on TIVO from the side and overhead. It was a great, great call. The swipe was clean, the shot was wild and any minor contact afterward was horsefeathers, BABY!

God.....I hope I outlive that idiot so I can enjoy College Basketball, again.

[mrkleen]

How can two teams play a physical, agressive, hard fought game...and have the final box score read:

Duke - 13 personal fouls
Boston College - 37 personal fouls

No matter who you support...if you watched that game last night and belive in fair play and impartial officiating...you have to be DISGUSTED about the way that game was officiated.

[ColdShot]

Originally posted by mrkleen
How can two teams play a physical, agressive, hard fought game...and have the final box score read:

Duke - 13 personal fouls
Boston College - 37 personal fouls

No matter who you support...if you watched that game last night and belive in fair play and impartial officiating...you have to be DISGUSTED about the way that game was officiated.

Actually it was 19 fouls by Duke and 27 by BC. You were looking at foul shots, not personal fouls Mr. Kleen. FWIW, I hate Duke, and grew up in New England, and at first thought it was an obvious foul. Looking at it a second time: Williams jumped within his vertical plane. Correct no call.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mrkleen
How can two teams play a physical, agressive, hard fought game...and have the final box score read:

Duke - 13 personal fouls
Boston College - 37 personal fouls

No matter who you support...if you watched that game last night and belive in fair play and impartial officiating...you have to be DISGUSTED about the way that game was officiated.

No we are only disgusted with fan boys that never pick up a rulebook or read anything about officiating.

Actually I saw a better angle on PTI and this was a great no call and looked just like another play I saw on the NCAA Men's Bulletin to pass on. You would have to be an official to know what that was.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Feb 2nd, 2006 at 09:20 PM]

[mrkleen]

Originally posted by JRutledge
No we are only disgusted with fan boys that never pick up a rulebook or read anything about officiating.

Actually I saw a better angle on PTI and this was a great no call and looked just like another play I saw on the NCAA Men's Bulletin to pass on. You would have to be an official to know what that was.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Feb 2nd, 2006 at 09:20 PM]

Fan Boy?

I have actually played, coached and officiated games for nearly 30 years...but nice try.

But, good to see that this site is full of people who belive the refs are beyond questioning.

This quote from Al Skinner, BC Head Coach says it all.

“All I’m saying is that tonight, with the type of team we have, we only shoot 13 free throws and they shoot 37 is hard to believe. Craig Smith plays 35 minutes and it’s difficult to believe that he does not go to the free throw line once. There was as much done to him as their post players received.”

But then again, you watched the play on PTI...so you know more than those of us that watched the entire game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mrkleen


Fan Boy?

I have actually played, coached and officiated games for nearly 30 years...but nice try.

But, good to see that this site is full of people who belive the refs are beyond questioning.

This quote from Al Skinner, BC Head Coach says it all.

“All I’m saying is that tonight, with the type of team we have, we only shoot 13 free throws and they shoot 37 is hard to believe. Craig Smith plays 35 minutes and it’s difficult to believe that he does not go to the free throw line once. There was as much done to him as their post players received.”

But then again, you watched the play on PTI...so you know more than those of us that watched the entire game.

Only fan boys quote coaches and use foul totals as an example of bad officiating. If you officiated anything worth is weight in salt you would know this happens a lot when two teams are playing different styles. I did see a good portion of the game and Duke was fast breaking and attacking the basket constantly. BC was trying to shot 3s and turning over the ball. Also we are not talking about just the game. We are talking about one call at the end of this game. The defender jumped straight up and the NCAA has told their officials in years of NCAA tapes to not penalize defenders that do nothing wrong.

I will challenge you to do this. There is a website the NCAA uses that anyone can register for without paying. The website is called Excel Sports Officiating. Anyone can register without paying. Anyone can look at all the NCAA Bulletins and see for yourself. The Bulletin that I am referring to is #3 under the Men's Basketball section. There are several plays to view that show examples that look identical to this play and the NCAA clearly wants nothing called.

Here is the link.

https://wwww.eofficials.com/pages/index.aspx

Peace

[jeffpea]

I saw some of the game; saw the play we are talking about and don't have a problem with the specific call or officiating during the game.

mrkleen - At any level of play, the game of basketball is really about getting the play into the paint (via dribble, pass, or even a rebound). The team that gets the ball into the paint the most will win about 80% of the time. The team that does that gets higher percentage shots and more FT attempts than its' opponent. THAT is why DUKE gets more FT attempts - NOT because officials favor them.

If you go back and watch the entire BC vs DUKE game, you will probably see that DUKE has more possessions where they get the ball into the paint than BC. Not all teams foul the same amount. Your complaints are exactly like a coach yelling "my guys are getting killed" - yet the coach can't cite a specific play. It's easy to complain about stat-sheet numbers, but it's a cop-out.

[ibumgardner]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I agree with JRutledge and the like that it wasn't a foul. The referee(s) had to have a lot of courage/training to not call that foul. It seems to me that not only did Williams jump straight up, but when he alighted (rulebook word), he was near the block. When he landed, he was underneath the basket. That tells me that the offense created that contact (at least 95% of it.) The guard was driving to the basket, ran into an immovable/dense object and caromed off of him. Simple physics.

One play that hasn't been brought up is the play right before JJ missed his only FT (late in the game). That foul COULD HAVE been deemed intentional (excessive force). If that would have happened in the NBA, I think that a flagrant would have been called and a fine would be handed down.

[RefAHallic]

May I chime in? Williams got to a spot in front of the basket and elevated from there. The offensive player jumped toward the basket (and thus toward Williams) to initiate the contact. The offensive player did what every coach tells a scorer to do when attacking a big man. I got my first look at the play on PTI Thursday. Guys, it took a lot of GUTS by that official not to call a foul. Who was the official by the way. I could always use another mentor.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Red_Killian
Look at where the officials are, both the C and L are in good position, the L better to watch Williams, the C having the drive from his primary...

I didn't watch the game live and have only seen the replay from one angle on ESPN.com. From the high midcourt angle, I think you could make a case either way. Foul or no foul.

Like Red, I did look to see where the officials were at the moment of contact. It appears that the L was in good position to see in between the offensive and defensive players. I also noticed that the C was still running at the moment of contact. The fact that he was moving could have affected his view of the play and led to the decision to not blow the whistle.