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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 11:11am
Jerry Blum
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Situation that happened Friday night that hopefully someone else can learn from.

BV 3-man mechanics. Close game throughout, ends up going into overtime. 16.7 secs left in first overtime tie score visitors with ball table side. Inbound the ball get their shot and miss, Home team rebounds. Here is where the problem starts. Prior to inbounding the ball homes coach says something to me about a timeout(I'm Trail) after made basket. When ball is rebounded I turn for some reason expecting to see a timeout called, there wasn't, problem is I had started to blow my whistle when I turned. Table heard the whistle, benches must have heard it, and a player or two heard it(fairly loud in gym). Since the table heard it he stopped the clock at around 1.2 secs. Then started it again because no one including me reacted to the whistle right away. When I realized what I had done the the home teams shot was away and the clocked stopped at .2 secs.

Thank god I was on the game with 2 very veteran officials, one 30 years with multiple state finals and the other 18 years with numerous tournaments. We got together and decided that 2.8 secs on the clock and had home team inbound on the endline (had to go full court). Obviously vistor's coach not happy at all that home will get another shot but I went over and told him it was my fault and I screwed up. Didn't help much but Home's shot didn't go so we continued to the 2nd overtime, Luckily for me. Game ended up going a third overtime before the home team won by 4-5.

Talked with partners after the game and they said that when you have an inadvertant whistle you should continue blowing the whistle once you have blown it so that everything stops.

Sorry for the length just figured I'd help someone out so that they don't have to go through that situation or at least learn how to handle it.

Any comments are welcome.
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 11:16am
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unfortunate mistake, but it apperently turned out alright
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 11:22am
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Suggestion:

As that situation was unfolding - loud gym, tight game, Time outs in coach's possession - I think it is positive game management practice to drift by the coach(s) and say "Its loud coach, I need to see a VISUAL time out signal if you will. I might not hear you".

I'm amazed at how many sounds roam around a gym that sound like the word "time".
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 11:55am
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This is, of course, the PERFECT example of why some of us do not like the coach being allowed to request a timeout. The rule before had been only a player on the floor was allowed to request; now we have to divert a little of our attention away from the floor to be aware of the coach's request. I have also granted TO's when I've heard a coach yell for the "Side out!" play. RefDaddy has the right idea in your sitch - if the coach says they're going to want a timeout at some defined point in the future, tell them to make sure they get your attention again, both verbally and visually, so there are no problems with them changing their mind.

I had a situation a couple of weeks ago in a women's game. Team A's coach is known to be rather soft-spoken. We are late in a close game, loud, small gym, and Team A scores. I was T, tableside, and am now new L. I'm starting to turn to go up the court to follow the players, and I hear behind me "Jim! Jim!". I turn around, and it's B's coach trying to get my attention. I get up in front of her, while trying to watch play on the floor, and ask, "What's up?" She says, "Carol (Team A's coach) is trying to get your attention for a timeout." "Huh?" Of course, by the time I turn back around, my partner was already blowing the whistle. We had a chuckle about it, because apparently Carol tried to grab me on the way past trying to get my attention. Oh well.
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 02:19pm
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You are so on the case!

Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
This is, of course, the PERFECT example of why some of us do not like the coach being allowed to request a timeout. The rule before had been only a player on the floor was allowed to request; now we have to divert a little of our attention away from the floor to be aware of the coach's request. I have also granted TO's when I've heard a coach yell for the "Side out!" play. RefDaddy has the right idea in your sitch - if the coach says they're going to want a timeout at some defined point in the future, tell them to make sure they get your attention again, both verbally and visually, so there are no problems with them changing their mind.

I had a situation a couple of weeks ago in a women's game. Team A's coach is known to be rather soft-spoken. We are late in a close game, loud, small gym, and Team A scores. I was T, tableside, and am now new L. I'm starting to turn to go up the court to follow the players, and I hear behind me "Jim! Jim!". I turn around, and it's B's coach trying to get my attention. I get up in front of her, while trying to watch play on the floor, and ask, "What's up?" She says, "Carol (Team A's coach) is trying to get your attention for a timeout." "Huh?" Of course, by the time I turn back around, my partner was already blowing the whistle. We had a chuckle about it, because apparently Carol tried to grab me on the way past trying to get my attention. Oh well.
Is there an official who likes the 'let the head coach call time out' rule?

Calling your inbounds play 'side-out' should be a technical foul . . . just kidding, but it is an all night problem when the coach does it.

I can't think of a rule that causes more coach-aggravation -they expect an instant response and it can't happen.

What I do (having granted a time out to a parent the first year this rule came in) is, upon hearing a coach's plaintive cry for time-out, first, observe is the ball in the control of or at the disposal of a player, and, if so, note the team, then turn to see if it is indeed the head coach of that team who's calling for the time out.

If I see that it is, I'll grant the time out - based on my observation from some tenths of a second back. I note this because, at the speed of basketball, by the time I turn and identify the coach and blow my whistle, the status of the ball may have changed - but the time-out dates from the moment I made my observation.

I've had a couple cases where a player has shot the ball before the whistle and the coach somehow didn't want the time-out to have happened in time. Of course he would have argued mucho the other way had something nefarious befallen his team . . .
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 02:21pm
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I still say go to fiba, no time outs during play! So simple, so little trouble, so little talking, much much easier
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 02:27pm
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Here's my latest.....away coach's signal for his full court press is an open hand raised over his head and he wiggles his fingers. This guy chooses to coach from his seat.

4 point game with 20 seconds left and his team hits a 3, as I turn to head up the court, (knowing he might want a TO) I see him get up with raised hand and so I honor his press-signal with a TO. I could tell from his puzzled look that I shouldn't have blown the whistle so I looked at my partner and we put em in play. Oops, but both coaches understood and we all laughed.

Like M&M said, because the coach can call the TO and we know the spots where they might want one, we divert our attention from the floor for a moment and situations happen.
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 02:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
This is, of course, the PERFECT example of why some of us do not like the coach being allowed to request a timeout. The rule before had been only a player on the floor was allowed to request; now we have to divert a little of our attention away from the floor to be aware of the coach's request. I have also granted TO's when I've heard a coach yell for the "Side out!" play. RefDaddy has the right idea in your sitch - if the coach says they're going to want a timeout at some defined point in the future, tell them to make sure they get your attention again, both verbally and visually, so there are no problems with them changing their mind.

I had a situation a couple of weeks ago in a women's game. Team A's coach is known to be rather soft-spoken. We are late in a close game, loud, small gym, and Team A scores. I was T, tableside, and am now new L. I'm starting to turn to go up the court to follow the players, and I hear behind me "Jim! Jim!". I turn around, and it's B's coach trying to get my attention. I get up in front of her, while trying to watch play on the floor, and ask, "What's up?" She says, "Carol (Team A's coach) is trying to get your attention for a timeout." "Huh?" Of course, by the time I turn back around, my partner was already blowing the whistle. We had a chuckle about it, because apparently Carol tried to grab me on the way past trying to get my attention. Oh well.
Is there an official who likes the 'let the head coach call time out' rule?

Calling your inbounds play 'side-out' should be a technical foul . . . just kidding, but it is an all night problem when the coach does it.

I can't think of a rule that causes more coach-aggravation -they expect an instant response and it can't happen.

What I do (having granted a time out to a parent the first year this rule came in) is, upon hearing a coach's plaintive cry for time-out, first, observe is the ball in the control of or at the disposal of a player, and, if so, note the team, then turn to see if it is indeed the head coach of that team who's calling for the time out.

If I see that it is, I'll grant the time out - based on my observation a few tenths of a second ago. I note this because, at the speed of basketball, by the time I turn and identify the coach and blow my whistle, the status of the ball may have changed - but the time-out dates from the moment I made my observation. I've had a couple cases where a player has shot the ball before the whistle and the coach somehow didn't want the time-out. Of course he would have argued mucho the other way had something nefarious befallen his team . . .
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 02:34pm
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Re: You are so on the case!

Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
This is, of course, the PERFECT example of why some of us do not like the coach being allowed to request a timeout. The rule before had been only a player on the floor was allowed to request; now we have to divert a little of our attention away from the floor to be aware of the coach's request. I have also granted TO's when I've heard a coach yell for the "Side out!" play. RefDaddy has the right idea in your sitch - if the coach says they're going to want a timeout at some defined point in the future, tell them to make sure they get your attention again, both verbally and visually, so there are no problems with them changing their mind.

I had a situation a couple of weeks ago in a women's game. Team A's coach is known to be rather soft-spoken. We are late in a close game, loud, small gym, and Team A scores. I was T, tableside, and am now new L. I'm starting to turn to go up the court to follow the players, and I hear behind me "Jim! Jim!". I turn around, and it's B's coach trying to get my attention. I get up in front of her, while trying to watch play on the floor, and ask, "What's up?" She says, "Carol (Team A's coach) is trying to get your attention for a timeout." "Huh?" Of course, by the time I turn back around, my partner was already blowing the whistle. We had a chuckle about it, because apparently Carol tried to grab me on the way past trying to get my attention. Oh well.
Is there an official who likes the 'let the head coach call time out' rule?

Calling your inbounds play 'side-out' should be a technical foul . . . just kidding, but it is an all night problem when the coach does it.

I can't think of a rule that causes more coach-aggravation -they expect an instant response and it can't happen.

What I do (having granted a time out to a parent the first year this rule came in) is, upon hearing a coach's plaintive cry for time-out, first, observe is the ball in the control of or at the disposal of a player, and, if so, note the team, then turn to see if it is indeed the head coach of that team who's calling for the time out.

If I see that it is, I'll grant the time out - based on my observation from some tenths of a second back. I note this because, at the speed of basketball, by the time I turn and identify the coach and blow my whistle, the status of the ball may have changed - but the time-out dates from the moment I made my observation.

I've had a couple cases where a player has shot the ball before the whistle and the coach somehow didn't want the time-out to have happened in time. Of course he would have argued mucho the other way had something nefarious befallen his team . . .
I agree with you 100%. Allowing coaches to call time-out's makes it tougher on everyone. Case in point: I just switched over to coaching this year. In our last game, (overtime against huge district foe, very noisy gym) we were up by 2 with 32 seconds left on the clock. We got a rebound and I saw my player taking off with the ball to push it down the floor. I was jumping up and down trying to call a time out. When I first began screaming she was in complete control of the ball. Two seconds later she made a pass ahead that went out of bounds. The official was right in front of me most of the time that I was calling for a TO. None was granted. I knew something bad was about to happen and I think he did too. Anyway I was annoyed about not getting the TO but completely understand. One other occassion this season, one of our players was in trouble with the ball and I was trying to get at TO, and well she was able to make a quick pass to get outta trouble and ended up with a lay-up. Needless to say I was glad no TO was granted.
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 02:45pm
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In a game earlier this season

we had a coach who had a play called "man out." It is a press break formation. Of course, its late in a tight game, his team has the ball, trying to inbounds against a press (his team had 2 or 3 point lead) and he bounds off the bench yelling "man out, man out." Very loud gym. You know what it sounds like. My partner signals the TO. The coach goes ballistic, because, he had only one TO left. We confer, rescind the TO, put ball immediately into play at POI (to his credit, other coach kept his cool and didn't argue). Afterwards, coach laughed when saying he should probably change the name of the play. DUH!
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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 03:07pm
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"Hear, recognize then award." That is what Ed Hightower told us when this rule was put into place when he was a Rules Interpreter about 7 or 8 years ago.

If you are ever unsure, do not award a timeout. I agree that a coach asking for a timeout is not the best thing for us to do, but that is the rule and I do not see it changing. So we are just going to have to deal with it until it is officially changed.

I usually have to hear a coach several times call for a timeout when they are out of my field of vision before I award one. Even when they say, "I want a timeout if the ball goes in." I still tell them to ask me anyway. I do not want there ever to be confusion on my part when I grant a timeout. So far I have not a problem, but the more and more I use that philosophy I have stayed out of trouble (knock, knock).

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Old Mon Jan 30, 2006, 10:16pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by M&M Guy
This is, of course, the PERFECT example of why some of us do not like the coach being allowed to request a timeout. The rule before had been only a player on the floor was allowed to request; now we have to divert a little of our attention away from the floor to be aware of the coach's request. I have also granted TO's when I've heard a coach yell for the "Side out!" play. RefDaddy has the right idea in your sitch - if the coach says they're going to want a timeout at some defined point in the future, tell them to make sure they get your attention again, both verbally and visually, so there are no problems with them changing their mind.

I had a situation a couple of weeks ago in a women's game. Team A's coach is known to be rather soft-spoken. We are late in a close game, loud, small gym, and Team A scores. I was T, tableside, and am now new L. I'm starting to turn to go up the court to follow the players, and I hear behind me "Jim! Jim!". I turn around, and it's B's coach trying to get my attention. I get up in front of her, while trying to watch play on the floor, and ask, "What's up?" She says, "Carol (Team A's coach) is trying to get your attention for a timeout." "Huh?" Of course, by the time I turn back around, my partner was already blowing the whistle. We had a chuckle about it, because apparently Carol tried to grab me on the way past trying to get my attention. Oh well.
Had a coach this year at pre-game tell us because his school was nicknamed the Crimson Tide that he had a play called 'Tide Out'. If you have to explain that at pre-game, it would seem reasonable that it would be a real good idea to call that play something else.
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Old Tue Jan 31, 2006, 08:25am
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I received a request from a member of the NFHS rules committee for suggestions for rule changes to be put in place next season. This was one of the changes I suggested, although I doubt it will be put in place. (If they do change the rule so coaches can't request the TO, I expect to receive cases of Diet Cokes from everyone who complained in this thread )
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Old Wed Feb 01, 2006, 01:43pm
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Coaches should be able to call time outs. Officials should simply do a better job of handling those situations - see JRut's post.

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Old Wed Feb 01, 2006, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffpea
Coaches should be able to call time outs.
Why? Other than the fact that they want to, why should they? They're not participating in the play. They're not in control of the ball. They don't have any more reason to expect to call a TO than any other sub on the bench -- other than the fact that many of them just assume that it's their right.

I'd much rather not have to take my eyes away from a play to verify who's requesting the TO.
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