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Old Sun Jan 29, 2006, 12:11am
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One more question, that occured last week during the game where I had my "OT Clock Snafu".

Twice, during the game, I called a foul for a defensive player for undercutting an offensive player that had jumped in the air for a rebound.

I don't recall if the coach of the defensive player had any comments for me after I called the foul the first time. However, he definitely had something to say to me after I called the second foul. He was yelling at me "He was just boxing out". My immediate comment back was: "Coach, your man undercut the other guy".

In any guess case, this is what I recall seeing. I see the offense put up a shot, a ton of players go to rebound. The offensive player jumps straight up to get the rebound while the defensive player keeps backing into the offensive player while he's in the air.

The reason I called the two fouls was I felt that if the defensive player had boxed out PROPERLY in the first place, the offensive player wouldn't be able to even get off the ground.

Anyone have any thoughts?
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Old Sun Jan 29, 2006, 12:17am
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Good call, not much else to say.
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Old Sun Jan 29, 2006, 12:17am
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Thumbs up

There's a difference in "boxing out" and what I call "backing out."

"Boxing out" is placing yourself between the basket and your opponent, and holding that position. "Backing out" is when you push your opponent or undercut him when he jumps for the rebound. "Backing out" is a foul, no matter what the coach may think.

Sounds like you made the correct call to me.
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Old Sun Jan 29, 2006, 03:04am
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Curious, you said "I felt that if the defensive player had boxed out PROPERLY in the first place, the offensive player wouldn't be able to even get off the ground."

What makes you say that? If a defensive player is preventing the offensive player from being able to jump, that sounds like a foul to me.
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Old Sun Jan 29, 2006, 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
There's a difference in "boxing out" and what I call "backing out."

"Boxing out" is placing yourself between the basket and your opponent, and holding that position. "Backing out" is when you push your opponent or undercut him when he jumps for the rebound. "Backing out" is a foul, no matter what the coach may think.

Sounds like you made the correct call to me.
I certainly call it the way you do - making some allowance for the general Sumo-like pushing of both parties to the boxing out. I'm curious, however, about the rules basis you would advance when "undercutting" is what happens.
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Old Sun Jan 29, 2006, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
I certainly call it the way you do - making some allowance for the general Sumo-like pushing of both parties to the boxing out. I'm curious, however, about the rules basis you would advance when "undercutting" is what happens.
If A1 is airborne and B1 moves underhim, has he gained his position legally? (4-23)
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Old Sun Jan 29, 2006, 03:56pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
I certainly call it the way you do - making some allowance for the general Sumo-like pushing of both parties to the boxing out. I'm curious, however, about the rules basis you would advance when "undercutting" is what happens.
If A1 is airborne and B1 moves under him, has he gained his position legally? (4-23)
I would, with you, say no.

4-23-1 states that "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."

The airborne rebounder, it strikes me, would fall under 4-23-5. The defender who "undercuts" has not initially gained legal guarding position (4-23-5(d) & 4-23-2(b)), and has violated the time and distance provisions (4-23-5(a & b).

That being said, I would like make mention of a situation I raised perhaps a couple years ago:

Team A is throwing the ball in from the endline at their basket. A1 attempts to throw the ball to A2 who is beyond the 3-point line. B4, who is facing A1, leaps backwards to catch the ball. After B4 leaves the ground, A2 comes towards the endline to catch the pass and a collision ensues.

Who fouled whom and why?



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Old Sun Jan 29, 2006, 08:56pm
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First guy to jump has a legal right to the space. In your case, foul on A2. If he catches the ball before contact, then it's a team-control foul. If contact occurs before he catches, the foul is subject to bonus provisions.
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