Jim Dixon Article (Officiating.com)

[mikesears]

In Jim's latest and most recent contribution to officiating.com, he states the following:

"Standing is not allowed for the purpose of chewing at officials. Standing to dispute calls is crossing the line, because it is an attempt to pressure officials to change calls - if not on this play, then over the course of the game. This should not be happening. It is for this very reason that the POE on bench decorum has been brought forward for accentuation."

I couldn't agree more! However, it does seem commonplace for officials to let coaches "chirp". Most officials just ignore it.

This leads me to some questions. What would you consider "disputing the call"? Are disputed "no-calls" covered? How would you suggest dealing with coaches in this situation? What words might you use? It seems that "Coach, that's enough" only works for the call in question. And I find it happens a lot when I am going to report to the table (no matter how far away from the table I am.) I refrain from using, "Coach, please worry about coaching" because someone once responded back, "Then you referee!" (I gave him a T).

I work mostly JV ball and I hope to work some varsity ball this winter. But before I feel ready, I am really needing to work on my coach management techniques. Any replies are appreciated. Davisms are welcome because I think of these in tough situations but most likely won't be used. I'm not experienced enough to use Davisms. Maybe when I'm older

[Tim Roden]

Coaches and fans for that matter dispute calls all the time. I don't think churping desirves action until it becomes continuous. The best resource I have found in learning how to deal with coaches is the famous Dale Carnagie book "How to win friends and influence people" His pointers on how to approach people who are angry with you are pricless.

[Oz Referee]

I am a big believer in using a short, witty comment to diffuse a situation with a coach, whenever possible. When a coach is constantly riding me, one of my favourites is a comment along the lines of "Let's make a deal coach, I won't call your plays for you - you don't make calls for me".

Several years ago I was refeering a Under 18 Mens game (probably similar level to JV), I knew both coaches well, and the whole game one had been on our back. After a time out, I approached his bench, and took the spare seat next to him. After a couple of seconds of stunned silence, he asked me what the hell I was doing, my response:
"Well, you seem to have the best view from here, so I'll run the rest of the game from here - any problems?"

As you can imagine, he wasn't quite sure what to say or do, I made my reply loud enough for the other coach to hear it, who thankfully broke into laughter. Even the guys own players started giving him grief over it.

Obviously this is not recommended, and I got dragged over the coals for it. However, the story got around, and I've never had to do it again (and never would).

As far as how much is too much? I think that's a personal decision, I know some coaches that believe they aren't doing their job unless they're questioning every call. In their case, it isn't always that they are insubordinate - it's just the way they are. Again it comes down to consistency, playes and coaches in the leagues that I referee know exactly what they can do and say before I "T" or toss them, and it is the same in every game. Whenever I ref with a new partner, I always go through my feelings on techs during the pre-game, just to make sure that we are on the same page.

In a nutshell - COMMUNICATE first, then if need be OFFICIATE with a tech

[BktBallRef]

I'll say it one more time. Until supervisors, booking agents, and coaches decide that changes need to be made to the game, you can throw the POE out the window. Every year there's a new set of POE. But if the guy who books you isn't going to back you up when you enforce them, you're screwed. Stay away from the POE!

Now that that is off my chest, I'll listen to a coach until:

1- He gets personal.
2- He starts to interfere with my job.
3- He gets out of his box while chirping.

Then he'll get a warning, or he'll get popped.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jun 6th, 2001 at 08:55 AM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I'll say it one more time. Until supervisors, booking agents, and coaches decide that changes need to be made to the game, you can throw the POE out the window. Every year there's a new set of POE. But if the guy who books you isn't going to back you up when you enforce them, you screwed. Stay away from the POE!

This has been my experience. I T'd a coach last year for being out of his box, verbally disagreeing with a call, and waving his hands at me in disgust. I haven't been back to that school since then and probably won't be. I was taking the rule to heart and thought I could change things single-handedly (I know, my mistake!)

Now that that is off my chest, I'll listen to a coach until:

1- He gets personal.
2- He starts to interfere with my job.
3- He gets out of his box while chirping.

Then he'll get a warning, or he'll get popped.

I think this type of officiating is pretty common and I agree the the POE's are a joke. Later last season, I started using your criteria. It seemst that a lot of attention is given to POE's but it rarely helps!

[Brian Watson]

At a HS level POE's are the biggest crock going. They get enforced for two weeks, then things go back to the way they were when coaches decide they do't like them.

Then you have the coach who wants it both ways, not called on him, but he points it out on the other side.

For those areas where they are enforced,kudos, but everywhere else it is just wasted space in the book.

Prime example is rough play. It was a POE for so many years I thought it was a perm. part of the book.

[112448]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I'll say it one more time. Until supervisors, booking agents, and coaches decide that changes need to be made to the game, you can throw the POE out the window. Every year there's a new set of POE. But if the guy who books you isn't going to back you up when you enforce them, you're screwed. Stay away from the POE!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jun 6th, 2001 at 08:55 AM]

BktBallRef --
i just looked at my NFHS book and i can't tell who the rules committee folks are, but in the NCAA the rules committee is made mostly OF COACHES (Dave Odom, Willis Wilson - Rice, and Roy Williams to name a couple). the coaches create and vote on the POE, if we don't enforce the POE, we're not doing what the coaches want.

As far as booking agents (assignors?) not backing you up -- there's not much you can do about that i guess, except to have someone else in your high school organization try to get that position. i certainly don't envy you in that regard.

Brian Watson wrote: "Prime example is rough play. It was a POE for so many years I thought it was a perm. part of the book."

My general feeling on this is that POE's are the biggest crock going because there are officials who ignore them. If we enforce them, especially during summer leagues and at the 9th grade and JV level, we CAN make a difference in the game. Referees need to have confidence in their calls and we all need to be more consistent, not only within the game, but from game to game.

If the coach of team X hates the fact that you're calling rough post play in the first game of the year that's understandable a little bit. If the coach of team X, however, is complaining to you in game 25 about rough post play, that means that the other officials in your association are not calling rough post play. That's not fair to you (as someone that IS calling rough post play) and most importantly it's not fair to the players.

Bottom line -- if we all enforce the POE's consistently, they will not "be a crock."

thoughts,

jake

[Brian Watson]

In a perfect world I would love to call all of the POE's, but this is not a perfect world.

Brass tacks, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is the coaches have the power in HS, not us. If they don't like me calling the POE's, and I keep doing it, then I do not get games. Is it right, no, but it is reality. There is a time and a place to have onions, this is not one of those times.

You are right from an NCAA level, coaches sit on the rules committee, but it is mostly administrators on the fed board. Rules/POE's are made that coaches don't like, so you do what you have to do. Do you even think for a minute that the bench decorum POE will be strictly enforced? Are you really going to drop the hammer more often on coaches becuase it is a POE? As much as I would like to see it happen, I doubt it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by 112448

BktBallRef --
i just looked at my NFHS book and i can't tell who the rules committee folks are, but in the NCAA the rules committee is made mostly OF COACHES (Dave Odom, Willis Wilson - Rice, and Roy Williams to name a couple). the coaches create and vote on the POE, if we don't enforce the POE, we're not doing what the coaches want.

As far as booking agents (assignors?) not backing you up -- there's not much you can do about that i guess, except to have someone else in your high school organization try to get that position. i certainly don't envy you in that regard.

Brian Watson wrote: "Prime example is rough play. It was a POE for so many years I thought it was a perm. part of the book."

My general feeling on this is that POE's are the biggest crock going because there are officials who ignore them. If we enforce them, especially during summer leagues and at the 9th grade and JV level, we CAN make a difference in the game. Referees need to have confidence in their calls and we all need to be more consistent, not only within the game, but from game to game.

If the coach of team X hates the fact that you're calling rough post play in the first game of the year that's understandable a little bit. If the coach of team X, however, is complaining to you in game 25 about rough post play, that means that the other officials in your association are not calling rough post play. That's not fair to you (as someone that IS calling rough post play) and most importantly it's not fair to the players.

Bottom line -- if we all enforce the POE's consistently, they will not "be a crock."

thoughts,

jake

I used to think the way that you think, Jake. But let me tell you why most of what you posted is bull****. No offense meant.

First, the members of the Basketball Rules Committee are listed in the front of the book, not the back.

Secondly, I tried enforcing the POE that was in last year's rule book. Here's a sample of what happened.

1- Intentional fouls - Twice in December, I called hard fouls that were intentional fouls by the book. Both games were 4A conference games. I ended up popping the head coaches in both cases in the minutes that followed. They were unaccustomed to the rule being enforced the way the POE is written. The next thing I know is my booking agent, who respect and who has helped me tremendously, is telling me that we need to back off.

2- Palming/Carrying the Ball - Pretty much the same story. My partner and I were calling it by the book and by the POE. We were a nightmare for the Allen Iversons of the world. Enough coaches complained that we were told to back off and only call it when the dribbler gained an advantage.

I'm not alone in my experiences. Other officials on this board have had similiar experiences. If you have experienced it yet, you will. It's just a matter of time.

The point is that until everyone, coaches, officials, booking agents, athletic directors and state offices get on the same page, we're always going to have POE in the back of the book. And the fact is that we're never going to get everyone on the same page.

If you have a way to accomplish that, I would love to hear it.

[Richard Ogg]

Originally posted by mikesears

This has been my experience. I T'd a coach last year for being out of his box, verbally disagreeing with a call, and waving his hands at me in disgust. I haven't been back to that school since then and probably won't be. I was taking the rule to heart and thought I could change things single-handedly (I know, my mistake!)

My first varsity night of league play last season, second game of the night was girls (equal time stuff, and I don't care either way), and I had a similar. It was very early in the game and we had a steal and 1-on-2 situation; I'm new lead. A1 tried to split B1 & B2 who were both in the paint and next to each other. She got through and put up the shot with some contact. I passed on the call. (Responsibility of contact on A1.) Coach came clear onto the court waving his arms and shouting "You gotta make that call!". I did. I never even looked at him, but cracked my whistle (I was infront of the table) and just reported the T to the table. My very experienced partner said I was right on the money.

Who knows, we may get back to those schools after all.

Our association applies the POE. I've seen our top officials stop the game and tell the coach (from well on the court) "This is how the game's going to be called now, so adjust." Smart coaches do. Slow coaches keep yelling expecting life to return to their normalacy.

[Danvrapp]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
"This is how the game's going to be called now, so adjust." Smart coaches do. Slow coaches keep yelling expecting life to return to their normalacy.

Kudos to Richard. I think this is an excellent point. POE's are put in the rule book because higher-ups want it that way, and we as officials have an obligation to follow and enforce those rules (in a perfect world!). I think a quick explaination like the one above to a coach who's wise to the game is the best you can do--and I'd bet my Fox that a good coach would adjust right now.

Of course, it's all made easier if we all called games with roughly the same approach, which again is a perfect world!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg

Our association applies the POE. I've seen our top officials stop the game and tell the coach (from well on the court) "This is how the game's going to be called now, so adjust." Smart coaches do. Slow coaches keep yelling expecting life to return to their normalacy.

You're very fortunate that your association has taken a stand and supported the POE. Who spearheaded the effort to do this and how long did it take to get everyone on the same page?