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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 04:56pm
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Jv Boys. Game in overtime. Partner is 1st year. Very poor mechanics or should I say non mechanics. Whistle blows, no signals, no one has a clue what the call is.

I call a foul on A1. Doulble bonus two shots for b1. Coach of B calls a timeout that he doesn't have. Team T on B. B1 shoots 2. A2 is shooting first of 2 technical foul shoots. I'm the T. Just as a2 is shooting partner blows whistle. No signal. Goes to table and says a had 6 on the floor during the shot.

I go talk to him to ask him what call is. He says A has 6 on the floor (5 nonshooters talking to coach on sideline). I'm trying to think of a way out of this. He is insistant on the call. Why was he even looking at this? I tell him to go report the T on A6 and we continue the game from there.

I know by rule he's right but... A loses by 5 in double OT because of that call.

Here's the question:
What do you do when your partner makes horrific call like that?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 05:04pm
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I don't understand, are you saying that he had 6 fouls, while he was on the floor. Personally, if this is the case....I'd let it slide, have 6 taken off the floor then I would tell my partner, we dont want these kids going home and saying we lost cause of the refs. You obviously had some seniority, and your junior partner should understand this. If the other coach has a problem explain to him, that the spirit of the rule is to make sure that people dont continue playing after their fouled out. That this wasn't intentional...any rational reasonable person should understand your point of view, and if they dont inform them that, thats the call being made, and walk away. I would definitely talk to my partner, and try and make him see the most reasonable way out of this.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 05:08pm
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According to partner. Someone from the bench stepped on the floor from the bench during the technical free throw while the coach of Awas talking to the nonshooters of A.
.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 05:12pm
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Also remember, we Just gave B a T for taking an excess timeout and coach of B must have heard partner's report to table.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 05:13pm
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so pretty much scrap what i just said......i would definitely meet with my partner, and ask him if this was really necessary. If he was adamant, ask him why...other then "it says it in the book," if he can't give you something solid that you can tell a coach,( because we both know...the coach is going to have an opinion, ask him to rethink his call. theres not much you can do when a partner makes a bad call, except batten down the hatches and prepare to get ripped apart by the coaches.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 05:13pm
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Lets see..... First year ref, working a Boys JV game, Overtime, poor mechanics. Quite possible they are in uncharted waters.

As you see the situation unfolding I suggest what I learned in my SCUBA training for a diver in distress. Look them squarly in the eyes, get them to relax, communicate to them to trust you.

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 06:18pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by hbioteach
I call a foul on A1. Doulble bonus two shots for b1. Coach of B calls a timeout that he doesn't have. Team T on B. B1 shoots 2. A2 is shooting first of 2 technical foul shoots. I'm the T. Just as a2 is shooting partner blows whistle. No signal. Goes to table and says a had 6 on the floor during the shot.

I go talk to him to ask him what call is. He says A has 6 on the floor (5 nonshooters talking to coach on sideline). I'm trying to think of a way out of this. He is insistant on the call. Why was he even looking at this? I tell him to go report the T on A6 and we continue the game from there.

I know by rule he's right but... A loses by 5 in double OT because of that call.

Here's the question:
What do you do when your partner makes horrific call like that?
What do I do? I support my partner completely out on the floor and then talk to him in the dressing room after the game. Your partner is a first-year official. You can't expect him to be doing a great job yet or to have developed sound judgment. That's all part of the learning process for any new official. Give him a chance to develop and help him- not dump on him.

Bottom line too...your partner was correct, by rule. If you're going to question him out on the floor like you did, you might as well hold up a sign saying "My partner screwed up". Wrong way to go about it imo.

Btw, you are aware of the correct ruling on this play, aren't you? That "someone from the bench" that you're talking about cannot legally be on their feet during a live ball(which a free throw is), let alone be out on the court. Rule 10-4-4. As soon as that "someone from the bench" stood up, it's a automatic "T". Your partner had the wrong reason for the "T", but the "T" certainly was deserved- strictly by rule.

Btw, I also disagree with you completely that that call cost team A the game. No single call ever does that. To be quite honest, I really don't think that you could even call that call "horrific". That's over-the-top. Yes, it was probably bad judgment, but that's how we learn our craft- by making mistakes and learning from them.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 07:27pm
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Question

Quote:
Originally posted by hbioteach

A loses by 5 in double OT because of that call.
You mean your partner made the free throws?

Or maybe it was because the team broke the rules, your partner called it and the other team made their free throws. What do you think?
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 08:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by hbioteach
I call a foul on A1. Doulble bonus two shots for b1. Coach of B calls a timeout that he doesn't have. Team T on B. B1 shoots 2. A2 is shooting first of 2 technical foul shoots. I'm the T. Just as a2 is shooting partner blows whistle. No signal. Goes to table and says a had 6 on the floor during the shot.

I go talk to him to ask him what call is. He says A has 6 on the floor (5 nonshooters talking to coach on sideline). I'm trying to think of a way out of this. He is insistant on the call. Why was he even looking at this? I tell him to go report the T on A6 and we continue the game from there.

I know by rule he's right but... A loses by 5 in double OT because of that call.

Here's the question:
What do you do when your partner makes horrific call like that?
What do I do? I support my partner completely out on the floor and then talk to him in the dressing room after the game. Your partner is a first-year official. You can't expect him to be doing a great job yet or to have developed sound judgment. That's all part of the learning process for any new official. Give him a chance to develop and help him- not dump on him.

Bottom line too...your partner was correct, by rule. If you're going to question him out on the floor like you did, you might as well hold up a sign saying "My partner screwed up". Wrong way to go about it imo.

Btw, you are aware of the correct ruling on this play, aren't you? That "someone from the bench" that you're talking about cannot legally be on their feet during a live ball(which a free throw is), let alone be out on the court. Rule 10-4-4. As soon as that "someone from the bench" stood up, it's a automatic "T". Your partner had the wrong reason for the "T", but the "T" certainly was deserved- strictly by rule.

Btw, I also disagree with you completely that that call cost team A the game. No single call ever does that. To be quite honest, I really don't think that you could even call that call "horrific". That's over-the-top. Yes, it was probably bad judgment, but that's how we learn our craft- by making mistakes and learning from them.
I had no choice but to question him on the call. I didn't know what his call was!!! I agreed with him that by rule it was the right call. We kept the floor discussion brief so he could properly report the T.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 08:41pm
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You should have those discussions away from the table and bench areas.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 08:52pm
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JR, I was all choked up after reading your post.
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Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 08:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun
JR, I was all choked up after reading your post.
Don't insinuate that officals 'choke'.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 09:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by hbioteach
I know by rule he's right but... A loses by 5 in double OT because of that call.
Bull$hit. You mean that Team A didn't miss any shots, committed no turnovers, played perfect defense, so the T had to have cost them the game?

He made a bad call? Sure he did. But let's not go overboard in blaming him for losing the game.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 22, 2006, 09:51pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by hbioteach
Jv Boys. Game in overtime. Partner is 1st year. Very poor mechanics or should I say non mechanics. Whistle blows, no signals, no one has a clue what the call is.

I call a foul on A1. Doulble bonus two shots for b1. Coach of B calls a timeout that he doesn't have. Team T on B. B1 shoots 2. A2 is shooting first of 2 technical foul shoots. I'm the T. Just as a2 is shooting partner blows whistle. No signal. Goes to table and says a had 6 on the floor during the shot.

I go talk to him to ask him what call is. He says A has 6 on the floor (5 nonshooters talking to coach on sideline). I'm trying to think of a way out of this. He is insistant on the call. Why was he even looking at this? I tell him to go report the T on A6 and we continue the game from there.

I know by rule he's right but... A loses by 5 in double OT because of that call.

Here's the question:
What do you do when your partner makes horrific call like that?
I hope this wasn't the tone that you had on the court with your partner, presenting him as being completely horrible. That attitude puts you in a no win situation in this type of spot.

Additionally, I'd like to know what happened with the excessive timeout. I wasn't there, but maybe good preventative officiating by you, the vet, could have prevented an excessive TO technical in OT by team B. In my book, an excessive TO technical foul during a dead ball in OT is just as hard to justify from a game management perspective as the T for 6 guys on the court or bench personnel standing. If I'm coaching team A, and team B has just received an excessive TO technical, I'd make doubly sure my bench was in order.

Sounds to me like this was poorly managed in all regards, though you can't say the officiating "cost" anyone the game.

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Old Mon Jan 23, 2006, 12:58am
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bioteach --

Everyone's jumping on you, and I agree with the content of what everyone is saying. But I also think I've probably beat up on partners worse than this, and I've been beat up on worse than this, too.

To answer your question, the way to handle this is the way someone handled your worst call in your first year. You step in and very,very quickly, ascertain what the call is, give the partner one good boost toward getting out of it, and then back your partner all the way to the dressing room. Even then don't jump on him, but let him know that generally this kind of thing doesn't get called in this situation. One of the hardest things for me has been to learn when to go "by the book" and when not to. There are quite a few rules that never, never get called, and quite a few that get very fuzzy very quickly out on the floor. Letting your partner know that this is one of those very fuzzy areas, and letting him know it very gently is the best way to handle it.
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