Rule research help

[Nevadaref]

Anyone know of a case book play or NFHS interpretation discussing a player coming in from outside the 3pt line to occupy a marked lane space AS the official bounces the ball to the FT shooter, but before the shooter catches it?

The reverse would be instructive too. ie The player is already in the marked lane space and vacates as the official bounces the ball to the FT shooter.

We are having a nice little discussion on these situations in my local area, and I can't find anything in the current case book.

Someone said that they recalled reading a ruling on this in the past. Perhaps it has been removed from the book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Never been covered in my memory. I'd whistle and re-set- and give the player sh!t.

[ChuckElias]

I'd handle it just like JR. In fact, I did handle it that way in a college game this season. I was Trail for the FTs and the coach yelled for a violation. My partner comes over and says, it is a violation. I said, "Not until the shooter catches it. I'm 100% sure," and tried to shoo him away so we didn't have the conversation in front of the coach. In the locker room coach's office, where we changed, we talked about it and all agreed that it was not a violation until the ball is at the shooter's disposal; i.e., when he catches it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I'd handle it just like JR. In fact, I did handle it that way in a college game this season. I was Trail for the FTs and the coach yelled for a violation. My partner comes over and says, it is a violation. I said, "Not until the shooter catches it. I'm 100% sure," and tried to shoo him away so we didn't have the conversation in front of the coach. In the locker room coach's office, where we changed, we talked about it and all agreed that it was not a violation until the ball is at the shooter's disposal; i.e., when he catches it.

Chuck:

You beat me to the punch with your response. I think that we did have a thread about what happens though if a non-shooter along the lane intercepts the L's bounce pass so that he can request a timeout. I took that position that this is a technical foul for delay of game. But I really don't want to get this thread of track so if anybody wants to debate the free throw pass interception in a new thread please do it.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

I think that we did have a thread about what happens though if a non-shooter along the lane intercepts the L's bounce pass so that he can request a timeout.
[/B][/QUOTE]Well, that would likely make the administering official's jaw drop anyway! It would certainly rate a "WTF you doing, Willis?".

LOL!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I did handle it that way in a college game this season. I was Trail for the FTs and the coach yelled for a violation. My partner comes over and says, it is a violation. I said, "Not until the shooter catches it.

True, but if either player coming or going was out of a lane space when the FT shooter caught it, then technically it shoulda been a violation.

I still wouldn't have called it, just like you.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
but if either player coming or going was out of a lane space when the FT shooter caught it, then technically it shoulda been a violation.

Right, so the key is to blow the whistle before the shooter catches the ball. As soon as somebody indicates that s/he wants to move (either into or out of a lane space), blow the whistle.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Right, so the key is to blow the whistle before the shooter catches the ball. As soon as somebody indicates that s/he wants to move (either into or out of a lane space), blow the whistle.

Well, personally I probably wouldn't be fast enough to blow the whistle before the FT shooter got it. The whistle wouldn't be in my mouth if I'm administering the FT. I'd still be in the middle of "WTF you doing,Willis?" anyway...but, if I hadda blown the whistle right after the FT shooter got the ball, I woulda handled it the same way---> re-set. Same as you woulda....

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 19th, 2006 at 09:24 AM]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

True, but if either player coming or going was out of a lane space when the FT shooter caught it, then technically it shoulda been a violation.

I still wouldn't have called it, just like you.

That was my argument in the local discussion. The player may not have broken 9-1-6 (a player leaving a space), but certainly did infringe 9-1-8.

After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free thrower:

ART. 6 . . . No player shall enter or leave a marked lane space.

ART. 8 . . . A player, other than the free thrower, who does not occupy a marked lane space, may not have either foot beyond the vertical plane of the free-throw line extended and the three-point line which is farther from the basket.


It is instructive to hear the opinions here because these situations happened in two recent games. One official handled it JR/Chuck's way and the other called a violation.

Of course, any association strives to be consistent in handling similar situations, hence we have been debating how exactly to deal with this.

[truerookie]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Anyone know of a case book play or NFHS interpretation discussing a player coming in from outside the 3pt line to occupy a marked lane space AS the official bounces the ball to the FT shooter, but before the shooter catches it?

The reverse would be instructive too. ie The player is already in the marked lane space and vacates as the official bounces the ball to the FT shooter.

We are having a nice little discussion on these situations in my local area, and I can't find anything in the current case book.

Someone said that they recalled reading a ruling on this in the past. Perhaps it has been removed from the book.

Navadaref,

You do not have anything until the ball is in physical control of the FT shooter. Look at rule 4-4-7b

[assignmentmaker]

My guess as to how I'd handle it is, if I observe that a player coming from the arc is damned near to the marked spaces, then clearly I missed his movement: I'd whistle to stop the ball from becoming alive - my error. If, however, the ball is on the way to the shooter, and I see a player start in towards the marked spaces, violation.

[truerookie]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker
If, however, the ball is on the way to the shooter, and I see a player start in towards the marked spaces, violation.

Assignmentmaker,
take a look at casebook play 8.1.1 sit(a)then look at rule 4-4-7a-d. feedback please.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by truerookie
You do not have anything until the ball is in physical control of the FT shooter. Look at rule 4-4-7b

Thanks, but I know the rules on at the disposal. The issue is more complicated than you are considering.

It is a question of timing and exact positioning. Does the player who enters from outside the arc (or leaves a marked space in order to head outside the arc) just as the official is bouncing the ball to the FT shooter (ball not at disposal yet and hence still dead) have to reach his destination BEFORE the shooter catches the ball (when it is deemed at his disposal and hence becomes live) or is this player in transit given some leeway because he started his move to his new location before the ball was placed at the disposal of the FT shooter.

In other words should the player be punished under 9-1-8 with a violation?

Now do you see why I asked for a case book play or something in writing from the NFHS?

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by truerookie

Assignmentmaker,
take a look at casebook play 8.1.1 sit(a)then look at rule 4-4-7a-d. feedback please.

Well, 8.1.1 Sit(A) says "after the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions . . . "

If I am careless enough to bounce the ball to the shooter while a player is, in good enough faith - that's a matter of judgement - taking a marked lane position, that's prima facie evidence that the players have not had sufficient opportunity and time. If, however, a player were over chatting with his girlfriend and ignored my warning, that would be different . . .

4-4-7(a-d) make clear that the ball is not at the foul shooter's disposal while en bounce, do they not? So, if I blow my whistle inadvertently (wink wink), I can avoid making a careless mistake on my part a factor in the game.

[Edited by assignmentmaker on Jan 20th, 2006 at 01:57 AM]