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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 02:18pm
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Boys JV. Center B1 (who is wearing glasses) gets a defensive rebound in the paint and is smashed in the bridge of the nose by A1. Partner immediately calls a foul on A1. B1 is clearly hurt, is bent over in pain holding his glasses and his nose and is visibily angry. He slams the ball to the floor -- and it bounces quite high.

This all happens right in front of me. Partner makes no call. I make no call. At half-time partner asks be about the play and I tell him it is a good "no call."

At some point in the second half, after another "non-call" involving the same player, the opposing coach complains and mentions the first-half slam. "That's an automoatic T and you guys didn't call it."

There are a few things that are "automatic" T's in my book, but this one was not close. What would you have done?
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Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 02:28pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BayStateRef
B1 is clearly hurt, is bent over in pain holding his glasses and his nose and is visibily angry.
BayStateRef,
Visibly angry?
I go to the player and console him. He doesn't slam the ball because my presence is all the attention he needs to regain control.
mick

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Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 02:30pm
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I would have to be there. That is not always an "automatic" under a few circumstances. If the player is hurt and slams the ball as a result I would have a little more understanding. Not to say this was one of those situations, but I would have to see how high the ball was bounced and how the ball was bounced. I would look at it the same as if a player got hurt pretty bad and use some profanity. In your situation it does not sound like the player was that hurt so he would get a shorter rope with that call.

Peace
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Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 02:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Visibly angry?
I go to the player and console him. He doesn't slam the ball because my presence is all the attention he needs to regain control.
mick
I went over to him at once, since we were in the bonus and he was going to shoot free throws -- unless he was hurt so bad he had to come out. He had already slammed the ball. He was angry -- and it was visible (which certainly included his slamming the ball.)
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Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 03:01pm
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Automatic T's -->
F Bombs
Other vulgarity yelled in anger too loudly crowd hears them)
Taunting
Dunking in Pre-Game
Slapping the ball on a throw in from inbounds
Player not in the Score book enters game

other actions suggest a warning or game management or ejection.

These are my "automatics".
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Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 04:35pm
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How high is high? In my games, if it's over their head, it's a T. I just feel that if the ball bounces over their head, it is poor sportsmanship that is obvious to everyone. I understand the player being frustrated, but they still need to control themselves.
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Old Mon Jan 16, 2006, 06:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BayStateRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Visibly angry?
I go to the player and console him. He doesn't slam the ball because my presence is all the attention he needs to regain control.
mick
I went over to him at once, since we were in the bonus and he was going to shoot free throws -- unless he was hurt so bad he had to come out. He had already slammed the ball. He was angry -- and it was visible (which certainly included his slamming the ball.)
That's good that you checked on him, BayStateRef.
Next time, try getting over there before he slams the ball,
right after he got hit so hard. Git next to him cuz he's gonna need to be calmed down. It's that testosterone thing that will need to be released somehow, and he may well need a nanny.
Doesn't hurt to immediately close down on any hard contact.
mick
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Old Tue Jan 17, 2006, 07:35am
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players should learn to do like a senior over here does He bounces the ball hard then just turns and hands it calmly over to the official "here you are" and then walks away he never gets T'd lol
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2006, 12:28pm
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IMO, it doesn't matter how high the ball bounces; if I think the player is frustrated by the play and not my call, then I give him a pass. Sounds to me like the player was upset that he was hurt and probably mad that his glasses might be damaged/broken.

As in life - not everything is black/white; there's a lot of "gray".
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2006, 12:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffpea
IMO, it doesn't matter how high the ball bounces; if I think the player is frustrated by the play and not my call, then I give him a pass. Sounds to me like the player was upset that he was hurt and probably mad that his glasses might be damaged/broken.

As in life - not everything is black/white; there's a lot of "gray".
Imo,it does matter how high the ball bounces. If it goes 10-15 feet in the air, then it's black/white to me. He's getting a "T".

That's why unsporting "T" are usually a straight judgement call by each official. Different tolerance levels.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2006, 01:40pm
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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[/QUOTE]Imo,it does matter how high the ball bounces. If it goes 10-15 feet in the air, then it's black/white to me. He's getting a "T".

That's why unsporting "T" are usually a straight judgement call by each official. Different tolerance levels.
[/QUOTE]

It was probably 10 feet high -- maybe even 12 feet.. But for exactly the reasons Jeffpea cites, I passed. This was not directed at the call or any player. It was clearly in reaction to the pain. And since I was not the calling official (who also saw the entire situation), I was not going to step in if my partner did not feel a T was warranted.

My usual "standard" is that you can bounce the ball as hard as you want, but if it bounces above your shoulder, then it is a T. And I really like Mick's advice to get in there right away on a hard foul. This happened quickly during a rebound and while the call was made promptly, neither of us reacted immediately to the hard contact. Will file that good advice away.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2006, 03:13pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by jeffpea
IMO, it doesn't matter how high the ball bounces; if I think the player is frustrated by the play and not my call, then I give him a pass. Sounds to me like the player was upset that he was hurt and probably mad that his glasses might be damaged/broken.

As in life - not everything is black/white; there's a lot of "gray".
Imo,it does matter how high the ball bounces. If it goes 10-15 feet in the air, then it's black/white to me. He's getting a "T".

That's why unsporting "T" are usually a straight judgement call by each official. Different tolerance levels.
I agree. If a player slams it and catches the ball its always a nothing. If he slams it and lets it go, 6 feet may be a no call. Above his head is always a T.
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2006, 03:47pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BayStateRef
It was probably 10 feet high -- maybe even 12 feet.. But for exactly the reasons Jeffpea cites, I passed. This was not directed at the call or any player. It was clearly in reaction to the pain. And since I was not the calling official (who also saw the entire situation), I was not going to step in if my partner did not feel a T was warranted.

My usual "standard" is that you can bounce the ball as hard as you want, but if it bounces above your shoulder, then it is a T. And I really like Mick's advice to get in there right away on a hard foul. This happened quickly during a rebound and while the call was made promptly, neither of us reacted immediately to the hard contact. Will file that good advice away.
That is why you get paid the big bucks. You were there, we were not. All we can do is image what we think you saw and come to our own conclusion.

I called a T on a player that slammed the ball and it did not go high at all. The reason he was called for a T because he had been warned about his behavior earlier in the game and reacted inappropriately. The kid later apologized to me directly after he entered the game. No one said a word. I think using absolutes do not help officials in any way. You saw the play and made a judgment. If you could not make that judgment you would not be on the game. I now the "Grand Puba" thinks otherwise but you did what you felt was best, that is good enough for me. This is totally a judgment call.

Peace
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2006, 04:28pm
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Wink



As in life - not everything is black/white; there's a lot of "gray". [/B][/QUOTE]

Is this why we're going to gray shirts in some college leagues?
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Old Wed Jan 18, 2006, 07:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Junker


As in life - not everything is black/white; there's a lot of "gray".
Is this why we're going to gray shirts in some college leagues? [/B][/QUOTE]

No, that's why we need younger officials.
mick
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