foul on free throw

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by cdaref
You are right, Chuck. Just being at the player's disposal isnt enough for team control. I jumped past several key steps. Careful what you ask for...

For team control, there must be player control. 4-12-2.

For player control, the player has to be "holding" a "live ball" "inbounds". 4-12-1.

Here, the player is holding the ball.

The ball is live because it is at his/her disposal, and it is at his disposal when handed to him/her. 6-1-2(c), 4-5-7(a).

S/he is also standing at the free throw line, which is in bounds.

All elements of player control are present, thus there is also team control.

Team control ends when (a) the ball is in flight for a try or tap for goal (and a FT is a try for a goal, 4-20-1), (b) an opponent secures control, or (c) the ball becomes dead. 4-12-3.

Since the ball is not in flight, no opponent has secured control and nothing else has caused the ball to become dead, team control is still in effect under our fact pattern.

Sorry I skipped over those key steps. Certainly you are right that the ball being live/at disposal by itself doesnt always create team control and it was sloppy of me to suggest that.

In this case, however, since being live means being at his disposal and being at his disposal means being handed to him, being handed to him means he is holding it--and by the facts is in bounds at the freethrow line, it seemed justified for me to say (in this case) disposal = team control.

How was that for a long and annoying analysis.

Not bad. And it's certainly not as annoying as constant questions.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by M&M Guy

Not bad. And it's certainly not as annoying as constant questions.

What makes you say that?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
Wasn't it "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" that had the one skit where everything said had to be a question?

So, has anyone answered yet? Wasn't it established the free throw shooter had the ball and had not yet shot? So, doesn't that determine team control? Since there is team control, wouldn't that mean B does not shoot free throws, and will be getting the ball OOB? Since B is getting the ball OOB, wouldn't we clear the lane for A's free throw(s), since the foul does not wipe out A's free throw(s)?

Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?

And What about Naomi?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by cdaref
How was that for a long and annoying analysis.

Not annoying at all, cda. I simply wanted to point out that player control is not established simply b/c the ball is at a player's disposal. (The ball could be at a player's disposal for a throw-in, for example. The player would even be holding the ball without player control in that case.) You filled in the rest of the blanks perfectly.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally posted by cdaref
You are right, Chuck. Just being at the player's disposal isnt enough for team control. I jumped past several key steps. Careful what you ask for...

For team control, there must be player control. 4-12-2.

For player control, the player has to be "holding" a "live ball" "inbounds". 4-12-1.

Here, the player is holding the ball.

The ball is live because it is at his/her disposal, and it is at his disposal when handed to him/her. 6-1-2(c), 4-5-7(a).

S/he is also standing at the free throw line, which is in bounds.

All elements of player control are present, thus there is also team control.

Team control ends when (a) the ball is in flight for a try or tap for goal (and a FT is a try for a goal, 4-20-1), (b) an opponent secures control, or (c) the ball becomes dead. 4-12-3.

Since the ball is not in flight, no opponent has secured control and nothing else has caused the ball to become dead, team control is still in effect under our fact pattern.

Sorry I skipped over those key steps. Certainly you are right that the ball being live/at disposal by itself doesnt always create team control and it was sloppy of me to suggest that.

In this case, however, since being live means being at his disposal and being at his disposal means being handed to him, being handed to him means he is holding it--and by the facts is in bounds at the freethrow line, it seemed justified for me to say (in this case) disposal = team control.

How was that for a long and annoying analysis.

Great reply except..."For team control, there must be player control. 4-12-2."

Player control is one way to establish team control, but not a must. Your can have team control with out player control as in the case of pass or interrupted dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kajun Ref N Texas
[/B]

Great reply except..."For team control, there must be player control. 4-12-2."

Player control is one way to establish team control, but not a must. Your can have team control with out player control as in the case of pass or interrupted dribble.
[/B][/QUOTE]Great reply except you're completely wrong.

Player control is the only way to establish team control. It sureasheck is a "must". You can't have team control without first having player control.

In the case of a pass or interrupted dribble, player control was established before the pass or interrupted dribble.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Great reply except..."For team control, there must be player control. 4-12-2."

Player control is one way to establish team control, but not a must. Your can have team control with out player control as in the case of pass or interrupted dribble.
[/B]

Great reply except you're completely wrong.

Player control is the only way to establish team control. It sureasheck is a "must". You can't have team control without first having player control.

In the case of a pass or interrupted dribble, player control was established before the pass or interrupted dribble. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for correcting my ill advised use of the word "establish." However I am not "completely" wrong. My point is, you do not have to have player control to have team control. During a pass or an interrupted dribble, you do not have player control, but team control is maintained.

You are correct in that you must have player control to establish team control.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kajun Ref N Texas

Great reply except you're completely wrong.

Player control is the only way to establish team control. It sureasheck is a "must". You can't have team control without first having player control.

[/B]

Thanks for correcting my ill advised use of the word "establish." However I am not "completely" wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]Your statement above was completely wrong. It still is completely wrong. That was my only point.

[Kajun Ref N Texas]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Thanks for correcting my ill advised use of the word "establish." However I am not "completely" wrong. [/B]

Your statement above was completely wrong. It still is completely wrong. That was my only point. [/B]

And my only point was that you can have team control with out have player control.[/QUOTE]

[cdaref]

Thanks Chuck! It is always a useful exercise to go step by step through the analysis.