After quarter T

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

That doesn't say that the "players" are bench personnel. What if a player does something else other than dunking that warrants a T? Just looking for rules support.

If you've still got the 2003-04 rulebook, look at POE #1- "Suggestions For Improved Behavior":
- "Officials should be prepared to assess a technical foul to a teammember/team demonstrating these unsporting acts. The specific inappropriate actions of a few teammembers may be individually penalized or the entire team may be assessed one technical foul, if they collectively engage in any inappropriate behavior(s). Since all teammembers are considered bench personnel BEFORE THE GAME AND DURING INTERMISSIONS, the head coach would also be charged indirectly with the technical foul".

That's very plain and definitive language imo. If anybody on a team gets a "T" before the game or during any intermission, the head coach gets an indirect "T" also.

[Back In The Saddle]

JR's cite is very direct. The definitions are slightly less direct, but still clearly gives us the same information:

SECTION 34 PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 1 . . . A player is one of five team members who are legally on the court at any given time.
ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s).
ART. 4 . . . A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

There are clearly no players until it's time to have 5 players on the floor. If all the team members are allowed to be on the floor (as during warmups and half-time), then there are no players. They are simply bench personnel, and thus the coach gets the indirect for their mis-behavior.

[refTN]

I am sorry, I know it is the rule but I just can't seatbelt a coach for his player on the court being stupid right as he walks off of it. I think that needs to be changed or better detailed in the rulebook.

[Ref Daddy]

Originally posted by refTN
I am sorry, I know it is the rule but I just can't seatbelt a coach for his player on the court being stupid right as he walks off of it. I think that needs to be changed or better detailed in the rulebook.

Don't try to talk your self out of enforcement. Yes, its odd - bt its a rule.

Maybe game management would suggest you getting near the coach and informing them of the consequences.

Last week we had a "book" administrative technical to start the game. Coach was real cool and actually admitted and apologized to the table. i approached and reminded him he needed to sit for the game. He was stunned!

"By Rule, Sorry Coach" was all I needed to say.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
Last week we had a "book" administrative technical to start the game. Coach was real cool and actually admitted and apologized to the table. i approached and reminded him he needed to sit for the game. He was stunned!

There's a good reason he was stunned.

Why exactly was he seatbelted for an administrative T?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy

Don't try to talk your self out of enforcement. Yes, its odd - bt its a rule.

Maybe game management would suggest you getting near the coach and informing them of the consequences.

I agree with this part. As refs, we need to enforce the rules as written. You don't do anyone any favors by "winging it". If you think it should be changed, then work to change it. But until it IS changed, you have to do it by the book. Of course, there are rules that are subject to interpretation, and those you need to enforce as the interpretation runs in your area of the country. But things like the indirect T are in the book, and should be followed. Period.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by refTN
I am sorry, I know it is the rule but I just can't seatbelt a coach for his player on the court being stupid right as he walks off of it. I think that needs to be changed or better detailed in the rulebook.

So which is it?

You don't like the rule and will not enforce it?

You don't agree that the rule exists and will not enforce it?

If you think it needs to be changed, great, get it changed. Please explain exactly how you're going to write the rule so this one specific situation is addressed, without affecting any other.

But if you still disagree that the rule exists, then you're just plain wrong.

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
Last week we had a "book" administrative technical to start the game. Coach was real cool and actually admitted and apologized to the table. i approached and reminded him he needed to sit for the game. He was stunned!

"By Rule, Sorry Coach" was all I needed to say.

You said yourself it was a "book" administrative technical. So why did you make him sit down? It's neither direct nor indirect on him. He doesn't lose the box.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

That doesn't say that the "players" are bench personnel. What if a player does something else other than dunking that warrants a T? Just looking for rules support.

Snake, look up the definition of a player. There's no such thing as a player until the game begins. That's why all team members are bench personnel until 5 players take the floor to start the game.

If a team member curses you during the pre-game warm-up, then it's a T on the team member and an indirect on the head coach. Coaching box is lost.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 9th, 2006 at 12:43 PM]