Tricky b/c situation

Nevadaref · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 02:27pm

I saw a game film the other day and a play caught my attention. Thought it might be worth sharing here.

1. Team B scores. A1 quickly takes the ball OOB and makes a throw-in pass to A2 who is standing in the backcourt at the FT line extended near the sideline. A2 catches the pass, but in attempting to turn upcourt and start a dribble bounces the ball off his knee. The ball goes forward in a path parallel with the near sideline, bouncing 3 or 4 times on the floor. The final bounce is just in the frontcourt. A2 chases after the ball and is the first player to reach it. When A2 first makes contact with the ball both of his feet are in the backcourt and he is reaching forward in to the frontcourt. His first touch consists of pushing the ball to the floor with one hand to continue his dribble.
Violation or not and why?

2. Same play, but in talking with a friend, it became clear that changing only one aspect of the situation was instructive. A2 does not catch the throw-in pass from A1. The ball touches his hands, but slips between them and hits him in the chest, then drops down and deflects off his knee. The rest of the play is exactly the same.

Violation or not and why?

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 03:16pm

I know, I know.....

But I'll wait.

Good questions, Nevada.

BktBallRef · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
A2 catches the pass, but in attempting to turn upcourt and start a dribble bounces the ball off his knee.

Did he start a dribble or not?

shawn29 · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 03:33pm

1. No violation. Started the dribble in the b/c, continued it when the ball was in the f/c but the other 2 points required for the dribbler were still in b/c.

2. B/C violation. Ball was muffed and gained f/c status when it touched the f/c and then was touched by Team A in its b/c.

ChuckElias · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 03:59pm

Quote:

Originally posted by shawn29
2. B/C violation. Ball was muffed and gained f/c status when it touched the f/c and then was touched by Team A in its b/c.

So does that mean that he never controlled it?

shawn29 · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 04:01pm

What was I thinking using that word anyway! I should have said fumbled, I guess I just prefer muff!

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 04:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by shawn29
2. B/C violation. Ball was muffed and gained f/c status when it touched the f/c and then was touched by Team A in its b/c.

At what point do you think team control was established?

shawn29 · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 04:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by shawn29
2. B/C violation. Ball was muffed and gained f/c status when it touched the f/c and then was touched by Team A in its b/c.

At what point do you think team control was established?

Good point, I think I would like to change my No. 2 answer. Thanx for bringing that to my attention.

Nevadaref · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
A2 catches the pass, but in attempting to turn upcourt and start a dribble bounces the ball off his knee.

Did he start a dribble or not?

Remember #1 is a play that I actually saw happen. The player pushed the ball towards the floor with the clear intent of that being a dribble, but instead of the ball going straight to the floor it hit his knee on the way down and bounced away.

Nevadaref · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 05:10pm

3. Same play as #1, but instead of A2 being the first player to reach the ball, A3 is the first to get there. His positioning and actions once he reaches that spot are exactly the same as A2's were in play #1.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 1st, 2006 at 01:23 PM]

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 06:36pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
A2 catches the pass, but in attempting to turn upcourt and start a dribble bounces the ball off his knee.

Did he start a dribble or not?

Remember #1 is a play that I actually saw happen. The player pushed the ball towards the floor with the clear intent of that being a dribble, but instead of the ball going straight to the floor it hit his knee on the way down and bounced away.

#1- No violation. A1 started a dribble, which was interrupted. The rule states a dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. The fact that the ball hit his knee prior to hitting the floor is of no consequence. it's still a dribble. Since he continued the dribble when he touched the ball in the FC, it's not a violation.

#2- No violation. No team control.

#3- Violation. A1 is not covered by the "3 points" rule as the ball had FC status when he started his dribble.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 31st, 2005 at 06:44 PM]

bob jenkins · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 08:23pm

I agree with Tony.

Jurassic Referee · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 08:28pm

I agree with Bob.

BktBallRef · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 31, 2005, 08:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I agree with Bob.

Shut up!

assignmentmaker · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 01, 2006, 01:58am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
A2 catches the pass, but in attempting to turn upcourt and start a dribble bounces the ball off his knee.

Did he start a dribble or not?

Remember #1 is a play that I actually saw happen. The player pushed the ball towards the floor with the clear intent of that being a dribble, but instead of the ball going straight to the floor it hit his knee on the way down and bounced away.

#1- No violation. A1 started a dribble, which was interrupted. The rule states a dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. The fact that the ball hit his knee prior to hitting the floor is of no consequence. it's still a dribble. Since he continued the dribble when he touched the ball in the FC, it's not a violation.

#2- No violation. No team control.

#3- Violation. A1 is not covered by the "3 points" rule as the ball had FC status when he started his dribble.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 31st, 2005 at 06:44 PM]

Nevadaref says:

"Same play as #1, but instead of A1 being the first player to reach the ball, A3 is the first to get there. His positioning and actions once he reaches that spot are exactly the same as A1's were in play #1."

Nevada, do you mean A2? All A1 does in question #1 is throw the ball in.

If that's the case, sure, #3 is the functional equivalent of BktBallRef's b/c quiz question in which the player is holding the ball straddling the line, drops it in the front court, and picks it up, is it not?