When is this a no call?

[lmeadski]

A1 comes down the lane and leaves his feet for a shot. At some point, B2 steps in front to draw a charge. After the contact, both players are on the hardwood. I purposely left out "the details" to hear your responses on what circumstances must be present for the NO CALL. I had this situation tonight and made no call. BOTH coaches came unglued! One wanted a charge, one wanted a block. When do you all remain mute on such a situation?

[refTN]

I am sure someone can explain it better but it falls under "feel for the game". I just feel it is an inate sense that you have, but that is just me.

[BktBallRef]

If the contact is slight.

If the defender flops.

If the defender is so far under the basket that the contact had no affect on the play.

The contact is after the airborne shooter returns to the floor.

These are not absolutes, just a few situations that I've had no call.

[rainmaker]

I've been told that if there are two players on the floor, there's better be a whistle. I don't think that applies to every play but the b/c on the shot really needs a call every time, I think. The easy way to get it right is to ref the defense. Keep the ball in your vision, but concentrate on the defense. If the defender is there before the shooter leaves the floor, it's a charge. If the defense is still sliding as the shooter is floating up, it's a block. When it's easy, there's no reason to no-call it.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I've been told that if there are two players on the floor, there's better be a whistle. I don't think that applies to every play but the b/c on the shot really needs a call every time, I think. The easy way to get it right is to ref the defense. Keep the ball in your vision, but concentrate on the defense. If the defender is there before the shooter leaves the floor, it's a charge. If the defense is still sliding as the shooter is floating up, it's a block. When it's easy, there's no reason to no-call it.

I've seen plenty of plays at the basket where both players hit the floor and NEITHER got there because of contact caused by the other.

B1 has position and bails early to sell the contact that has not happened yet, A1 makes an athletic move and twists to avoid B1 and becomes off balanced. Both end up on the floor, A1 did not charge and B1's semi flop did not cause A1 to hit the floor...I have nothing, and that directive is more about not getting a bunch of angry phone calls from coaches and ADs than player safety and judgment, IMO.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by blindzebra

I've seen plenty of plays at the basket where both players hit the floor and NEITHER got there because of contact caused by the other.

B1 has position and bails early to sell the contact that has not happened yet, A1 makes an athletic move and twists to avoid B1 and becomes off balanced. Both end up on the floor, A1 did not charge and B1's semi flop did not cause A1 to hit the floor...I have nothing, and that directive is more about not getting a bunch of angry phone calls from coaches and ADs than player safety and judgment, IMO.

Yea, I know. But I think your play is the exception rather than the rule. If lmeadski is reffing the defense, as I recommended, the semi-flop will be apparent and there won't be much question about the no-call. I thought the question was about the standard b/c rather than the tricky stuff.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by lmeadski
A1 comes down the lane and leaves his feet for a shot. At some point, B2 steps in front to draw a charge. After the contact, both players are on the hardwood. I purposely left out "the details" to hear your responses on what circumstances must be present for the NO CALL. I had this situation tonight and made no call. BOTH coaches came unglued! One wanted a charge, one wanted a block. When do you all remain mute on such a situation?

Not very often. If the contact was just a slight brush and the defender had LGP, I've probably got nothing.

That being said, when I observe games I see way too many no-calls on these plays. When the contact is hard enough that both players go to the floor, there should almost always be a whistle. IMHO, too many officials go with a no-call when they aren't completely sure of the correct call. This leads to a rougher game. Make a freakin' decision.

Z

[Rich]

Originally posted by lmeadski
A1 comes down the lane and leaves his feet for a shot. At some point, B2 steps in front to draw a charge. After the contact, both players are on the hardwood. I purposely left out "the details" to hear your responses on what circumstances must be present for the NO CALL. I had this situation tonight and made no call. BOTH coaches came unglued! One wanted a charge, one wanted a block. When do you all remain mute on such a situation?

If there is reasonable contact without a flop, you should have something when both players go to the floor.

[BloggingRefGuy]

How about a dribbler whose legs get tangled up with the defender sliding along near him/her? Both players go down, and it's unclear who caused the tangle. No call?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BloggingRefGuy
How about a dribbler whose legs get tangled up with the defender sliding along near him/her? Both players go down, and it's unclear who caused the tangle. No call?

Yup, it should always be a no-call if you're unclear as to who should be charged with the foul. You should never make any call that you're not sure of-- i.e. if there's any doubt(unclear)-fuggedaboutit.

Having said that though, if you no-call too many plays where a dribbler and a defender are both going down because of leg contact, you night not be no-calling that type of play at the varsity or higher level for long. Somebody committed a foul on that play and you gotta go get it if bodies are ending up on the floor. There ae exceptions, of course, like the dribbler stepping on a defender's foot. That one often is a legitimate no-call. Leg-to-leg contact though is usually a foul of some kind imo.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by lmeadski
One wanted a charge, one wanted a block. When do you all remain mute on such a situation?

Call both! That'll shut'em up!

Originally posted by lmeadski
A1 comes down the lane and leaves his feet for a shot. At some point, B2 steps in front to draw a charge. After the contact, both players are on the hardwood. I purposely left out "the details" to hear your responses on what circumstances must be present for the NO CALL. I had this situation tonight and made no call. BOTH coaches came unglued.

In all seriousness, I tend to make a no call if there is only slight contact, or if I believe that there was feinting (sp?) by the defender.

If you have a train wreck, I gotta think you should more than likely have a foul. To do that, you gotta see the whole play. Bottom line here is: you've got a job to do: do it!

JR's advice is good... which leads to another thread. Referee the Defence. A poster didn't do so and didn't know what to do with contact involving a secondary defender.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
If the contact is slight.

If the defender flops.

If the defender is so far under the basket that the contact had no affect on the play.

The contact is after the airborne shooter returns to the floor.

These are not absolutes, just a few situations that I've had no call.

lmeadski:

1. "If the defender is so far under the basket that the contact had no affect on the play."

If the offensive player is coming down the lane, and hasn't shown wanton disregard for the life and limb of the defender . . . I can live with this.

If, however, the offensive player is coming from the side (more or less), then the defender has no way of knowing whether or not the offensive player is going to attempt a shot or just go through to the other side - I'm a LOT more likely to have a call.

2. "The contact is after the airborne shooter returns to the floor."

This can be very complicated.

If the 'offensive' player is not longer in the air . . . then he or she is no longer the offensive player. If said former offensive player & ex-defender are inbounds, and if the ball is alive (hasn't gone through the basket), if there's a foul it's going to be a common foul; if, however, the ball has gone through the basket, such a foul would be, by rule, a (probably intentional) technical foul.

Many, many officials treat this kind of contact after the shooter has returned to earth as if the shooter were still airbone . In the girls game, the shooter may well have not been airborne in the first place, so extra vigilance needs be paid.

[lmeadski]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
[B]If the contact is slight.

If the defender flops.


If the defender flops, it means that he is falling away from the player that is in the air. Even if the flopping defender's feet are stable, but draws contact (direct, split down the middle contact) from the airborn shooter, shouldnt this always be considered a block? In this situation, wouldn't he forfeit his "legal guarding position" by flopping?

[jr]

if the defender has lgp before the offensive player's LAST STEP to the basket---charge

if the defender does NOT have lgp before the offensive player's LAST STEP to the basket---block

of course, you could have no calls on these also...

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by jr
if the defender has lgp before the offensive player's LAST STEP to the basket---charge

if the defender does NOT have lgp before the offensive player's LAST STEP to the basket---block

of course, you could have no calls on these also...

And where, may I ask, do you find that in the rules?