Confession: Toughest call....(4 Principles)

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly, torso-to-torso contact is only one of the things needed to know to make the correct call. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Torso-to-torso contact is not the sole determining factor in the call- and it never has been.

You can have torso-to-torso contact and the block-or-charge call would still be dependant on whether the defender was there before the shooter left his feet, and also whether the defender was moving towards the airborne shooter when the torso-to-torso contact occurs.

My point is that you cannot make the correct call in this situation just by simply going with torso-to-torso contact, as Tom said. You have to split hairs. The correct call is determined by all of the relevant principles involved in block/charge, not just one principle only.

Now that I see your highlighting in red, perhaps Rick wasn't missing your point as much as I thought. Sorry 'bout that, partner.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
[/B]

If you don't understand how ref the d and ref the matchup differ, that is a part of the game you are missing. It isn't a buzzword, it is something that happens probably millions of times a day during basketball season.

[/B][/QUOTE]Well, Tom, I had a very earnest and experienced clinician/friend explain "ref the match-up" to me last summer. He got a l'il pissed at me too when I broke out laughing. I then asked him to explain just exactly where that concept differs fom the correctly-taught version of the ol' "ref-the-defense" philosophy. After he thought about it, he finally admitted that there really wasn't that much difference at all.

It's called "re-inventing the wheel".

Of course, that just my opinion. Take it fwiw.

[Rick82358]

You are correct - I misinterpreted your response -
As Emily Lattale (Sat Night Live ) so graciously put it "Nevermind!"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
[/B]

Contact in the torso does have somethingto do with this play. That is my opinion just like JR gave his. I'm editing this post after reading the next two posts. JR explained himself more, which I agree with, so I think an edit is called for. Taking the contact in the chest is not the only thing to look for but it is one thing to look for. For an airborne shooter, a sliding defender is even more important. However, these are often "bang bang" plays and - let's face it - the amount of contact often determines IF we blow the whistle (along with whether the players go down..etc, etc).

[/B][/QUOTE]That's all I was trying to say, Tom. I was sure that you knew all the principles correctly, but I was just trying to correct a little possible vagueness for any newer officials maybe reading that who aren't as cognizant of all the factors needed to get the call right.

I also agree that if you have a trainwreck, you should have a whistle. Most evaluators want one- whether you end up getting the call right or wrong.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If you don't understand how ref the d and ref the matchup differ, that is a part of the game you are missing. It isn't a buzzword, it is something that happens probably millions of times a day during basketball season.

[/B]

Well, Tom, I had a very earnest and experienced clinician/friend explain "ref the match-up" to me last summer. He got a l'il pissed at me too when I broke out laughing. I then asked him to explain just exactly where that concept differs fom the correctly-taught version of the ol' "ref-the-defense" philosophy. After he thought about it, he finally admitted that there really wasn't that much difference at all.

It's called "re-inventing the wheel".

Of course, that just my opinion. Take it fwiw. [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe, just maybe, your friend didn't know how to explain something someone had told him. That is part of my point; some people listen with no understanding which may lead to them doing/saying something that they know nothing of. If someone, one person, takes "reffing the D" literally, they could miss many things with the matchup. However, if they are told from day 1 to ref the matchup, including the d, they will see more traveling, carries (POE), double dribbles and other things. Additionally, this will force more of an open look which goes a loooooong way towards seeing the whole play AND the next play/matchup (passes, picks and other things). Here is what gets me: if you understand what I'm saying and I understand what you are saying, this verbage isn't for us and it does neither of us any good to go back and forth. BUT, if someone, anyone, gains a little bit from what is said, that helps the game. That is what is important to me.

WOW! Look at your post while I was writing mine. We are pretty much saying doing the same thing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
[/B]

Here is what gets me: if you understand what I'm saying and I understand what you are saying, this verbage isn't for us and it does neither of us any good to go back and forth. BUT, if someone, anyone, gains a little bit from what is said, that helps the game. That is what is important to me.

WOW! Look at your post while I was writing mine. We are pretty much saying doing the same thing. [/B][/QUOTE]We agree.

Is this where we hold hands and sing "Kumbaya"?

[Nevadaref]

Group hug?

That warm, fuzzy feeling is back. Perhaps it's just the eggnog?

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by Larks
I have a new appreciation for block / charge as it relates to one of the 4 principles (Ref the D). Last week, I had what was possibly the toughest block / charge call I have ever had.

I was L, closed down table side. I pick up activity nr. the FT line extended. A1 is driving right down the lane line, right at me and being guarded by B1. A1 blows by B1 and leaps towards the goal. I open up and see B2 standing there like he'd been there all week. Bam, torso contact, huge crash. I immediately comeout Charge / Player Control. Huge call. 3:00 to go. A is making a run to get back in the game only down 4. All H E double tooth pic breaks loose.

Here's the rub...A's coach suggested B2 slid in AFTER A was airborne. Being 100% honest, I had no idea how long B2 was there because the distraction of the dribble drive right at me caused my vision to narrow. Here is how close this was: C said great call, charge all the way. T said he slid in, Block. No way T could have double whistled to possibly save my a$$, I was selling charge to whoever was buyin.

So I am telling a mentor about this play today and what did he say that hit me like a slap in the face: You have to ref the Defense.

It's so basic but there it is. Ref the D.

Ever notice that sometimes when you really feel like you have a handle on things, maybe have a little spring in your step and a play like this one will jump up and bite you?

Heck, I could have been right and it was a charge but having the time to reflect, I now dont know. If I get the tape, I guess I'll find out.

And thats why I have come in today Father.....now how many Our Fathers and Hail Mary's do I need to do again?

Actually, can I opt for the writing the 4 principles out 100x on the black board?

Refing the defense will always give you a good clean look at what is happening. I am doing that more and more now and trying to train myself to do it all the time. As far as your call, the Trail Official is "suppose" to carry the play all the way to the basket and should have had a whistle. That is a pre-game discussion, but like I said, ref the defense and you cant go wrong.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by IREFU2
...but like I said, ref the defense and you cant go wrong.

Do you mean this literally or figuratively?

If literally, there are many ways you can go wrong if ALL you are doing is reffing the D.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by tomegun

Do you mean this literally or figuratively?

If literally, there are many ways you can go wrong if ALL you are doing is reffing the D.

Figuratively, of course.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by IREFU2
... the Trail Official is "suppose" to carry the play all the way to the basket and should have had a whistle. That is a pre-game discussion...

Not in my pregame.

The Trail would have this play if A1 and B1 crashed, but if a secondary defender, B2, tries to take a charge the official from whose primary area this defender came from has the whistle. So from where did B2 come from, Lead's or C's area? That is who makes this call.

Any other official, even if he has the dribbler, has no idea whether or not that defender got into position in time.
The only official who can get this call right is the one watching B2.

[Jimgolf]

For a charge, the defender has to have established legal guarding position. If you're not watching B2 in this play, how can you determine this?

It looks to me like the key is to constantly be watching to determine who has LGP in your zone. Is this the right approach?

It's easy to say you should have been looking here or there, but in this case, without knowing whether B2 has LGP, yet knowing that sufficient contact for a foul has occured, what is the correct approach?
Blow the whistle and confer with other officials, (i.e., act like you've got a double whistle) or use your experience and judgment and make the call on your own?

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Not in my pregame.

The Trail would have this play if A1 and B1 crashed, but if a secondary defender, B2, tries to take a charge the official from whose primary area this defender came from has the whistle. So from where did B2 come from, Lead's or C's area? That is who makes this call.

Any other official, even if he has the dribbler, has no idea whether or not that defender got into position in time.
The only official who can get this call right is the one watching B2.

Agreed!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
For a charge, the defender has to have established legal guarding position. If you're not watching B2 in this play, how can you determine this?

It looks to me like the key is to constantly be watching to determine who has LGP in your zone. Is this the right approach?

Not necessarily, Jim. The secondary defender, B2, coulda been in a rebounding position with his back turned to the play before the shooter left his feet. In that case, that secondary defender never had LGP, but if he was there before the shooter became airborne, it's a charge if the shooter knocks him over-- even though the contact woulda been on the back of the secondary defender. In that case, the secondary defender didn't have LGP, but he did have a legal floor position.

There's a buncha factors- and different rules- involved in getting this one right. I personally think that the key is close to what you said above; you have to know the position and status of the defensive players in the area when the shooter goes airborne. And to do that you have to referee the defense/match-up.

Good question by Larks btw- and a good discussion.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
Blow the whistle and confer with other officials, (i.e., act like you've got a double whistle) or use your experience and judgment and make the call on your own?

I'm going with the latter...make the call and make you and your crew look strong...hopefully. (Heck, you've got a 50% chance you were actually right.)

It's funny this topic is on the forum today...I had this exact play happen last night. Unfortunately, we didn't have as good a pre-game as Nevada has concerning the secondary defender out of your partner's area.

I was L...close down...and had B2 in the key. A1 drove from T's primary with B1 getting beat. As I was going wide, B2 obtained LGP in about the #2 postition on the floor...Boom, A1 crashed into B2. As they both were going OOB they just about took me out as I was selling the Player Control. (I might have been a little to close to the endline.)
I kept my feet and reported the foul. My partner had a whistle also...but held the call. As I was putting the ball in play, my partner touched his chest...He might have been communicating to me that it was his call, I'll have to call him today to see what he meant.
We had a really good game that came down to a last second shot, hitting the rim at the buzzer, in OT...so we were to busy trying to figure out who was buying the sodas for the OT to talk about that play...but, we'll get to it today.