New and Different Clock Question

[rainmaker]

This sitch came up in my head just now as I was reading another thread about the clock not starting. It's a different situation, so I started a different thread. Don't want to get confused. Or at least not any more confused than I am already.

Suppose there are 3 seconds on the clock, tie game, ball is being inbounded by Team A under their own basket. Lead chops in the clock as the ball is touched in bounds, Trail picks up a count and after about two seconds, looks at the clock, and sees that it hasn't started. Should he....

1) stop the game, re-set the clock, and re-start?

2) try to get the clock going without stopping the game?

3) let the game go on, and stop it when time is up according to his count?

4) some other alternative I haven't thought of?

[zebraman]

Rainmaker,

I've seen this post before and there is really NO good solution here. No matter what you do, it isn't going to feel right and someone is going to be unhappy. Clock errors by the timekeeper aren't covered in any rule book or case book that I know of.

That's why it's imperative in this situation to take your time and make sure one official goes to the table and talks to the timekeeper to remind them to watch for the chop. Even if it holds up the game for a few seconds, it's worth it!

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 02:06 PM]

[icallfouls]

Originally posted by rainmaker
This sitch came up in my head just now as I was reading another thread about the clock not starting. It's a different situation, so I started a different thread. Don't want to get confused. Or at least not any more confused than I am already.

Suppose there are 3 seconds on the clock, tie game, ball is being inbounded by Team A under their own basket. Lead chops in the clock as the ball is touched in bounds, Trail picks up a count and after about two seconds, looks at the clock, and sees that it hasn't started. Should he....

1) stop the game, re-set the clock, and re-start?

2) try to get the clock going without stopping the game?

3) let the game go on, and stop it when time is up according to his count?

4) some other alternative I haven't thought of?

1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
4) YES. Stop play. You have definite knowledge of two seconds that should have come off the clock. Put :01 on the clock and inbound. Depending on how soon the closely guarded count started, you could make a case that the quarter actually expired. OT baby!

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by icallfouls

1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
4) YES. Stop play. You have definite knowledge of two seconds that should have come off the clock. Put :01 on the clock and inbound. Depending on how soon the closely guarded count started, you could make a case that the quarter actually expired. OT baby!

Or if you have a courtside monitor!!!!

[IAABO_Ref]

NFHS Case book plays 5.10 are all about timing mistakes.

If the official has definite knowledge of the elapsed time without the clock starting then the referee can correct it. In this case when you would correct it as soon as you noticed it.

The timer is given a second to start or stop the clock without it being considered a timing mistake.

If the closely guarded situation was not immediate you could still only take two seconds off the clock, because that’s the only amount of time you have definite knowledge elapsed. You can’t guess.
.


[Edited by IAABO_Ref on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 02:14 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
The timer is given a second to start or stop the clock without it being considered a timing mistake.

The timer is given a second to stop the clock; not to start it.

In Juulie's original play, I have yelled, "Clock" when I've noticed -- this gets others to notice. Then, I keep the count and blow the whistle when time (by my count) expires.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

The timer is given a second to stop the clock; not to start it.

In Juulie's original play, I have yelled, "Clock" when I've noticed -- this gets others to notice. Then, I keep the count and blow the whistle when time (by my count) expires.

Crude (I've done it too) but this could be the best solution.

[deecee]

with this little time you dont want to stop with 1 second left and have the offensive team re-inbound the ball -- what if coach just called a timeout to draw a play -- he wasted the timeout -- either give all 3 seconds back and let them redo or just count down the time and blow your whistle when the game ends and you can explain that to both coaches and that would be much more fair than having the team with the ball being screwed out of 2 seconds --

if you have definitive knowledge just do the last 3 seconds in your head -- if you dont then redo the 3 seconds -- its not like there is 40 seconds on the clock and you stop at 38 -- team still has a few seconds to get in a good inbounds play that could take 2-3 seconds to develop.

If this were me -- id put back on the 3 seconds since with less that 5 seconds Iwouldnt have ANY counts since it wont matter so I wont be counting anything -- i would be focused on the last shot depending on my position and lookingn for contact and release point and horn.

Under 10 seconds I dont count back court 10 count -- and under 6 seconds I dont count closely guarded. There are much more important things IMO to be focusing on with under 3 seconds than any count (all of which are irrelevant -- I mean who is going to call the 3 second violation here?).

[Edited by deecee on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 03:00 PM]

[icallfouls]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by deecee
[B]
...
If this were me -- id put back on the 3 seconds since with less that 5 seconds Iwouldnt have ANY counts since it wont matter so I wont be counting anything -- i would be focused on the last shot depending on my position and lookingn for contact and release point and horn.

Under 10 seconds I dont count back court 10 count -- and under 6 seconds I dont count closely guarded. There are much more important things IMO to be focusing on with under 3 seconds than any count (all of which are irrelevant -- I mean who is going to call the 3 second violation here?).


So you are going to give the offense 2 chances to get a shot off that could win the game? Check the 1972 Olympics, the USSR got three chances at a last second shot before they finally won the gold. Of course they were down 1 point rather than tied.

What if the defense plays solid D and forces a bad shot, then you put 3 seconds back on the clock so they can get another play that might have a better result?

With 3 seconds left, one of the most important things to be aware of is the clock because you have to know if the shot was released prior to the horn.

[Edited by icallfouls on Dec 22nd, 2005 at 03:44 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by deecee
Iwouldnt have ANY counts since it wont matter so I wont be counting anything -- i would be focused on the last shot depending on my position and lookingn for contact and release point and horn.

There are much more important things IMO to be focusing on with under 3 seconds than any count (all of which are irrelevant --

Having a count is how you prevent my scenaria from being a major disaster. There's NOTHING more important than the clock, especially in those last few seconds of a tie game. If you are in the habit of counting from the time the ball comes in until you glance up to see that the clock is running, you have one more strength as a referee. If you are discounting (pun!!) the importance of the clock, you are losing a certain amount of control. My question isn't whether you should be counting, it's what to do with the count when the clock isn't running correctly.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by icallfouls

1) NO
2) NO
3) NO
4) YES. Stop play. You have definite knowledge of two seconds that should have come off the clock. Put :01 on the clock and inbound. Depending on how soon the closely guarded count started, you could make a case that the quarter actually expired. OT baby!

Really, Jim? You'd stop the play and have another inbound with 1 second left?

Would your procedure change if you could see that the team in control was heading for an open lay-up since the teammates had drawn the defense out of the key?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Really, Jim? You'd stop the play and have another inbound with 1 second left?

Would your procedure change if you could see that the team in control was heading for an open lay-up since the teammates had drawn the defense out of the key?

I'd stop play and put 1 second on the clock unless the player was in a clear scoring position.

The problem with letting it start late but not correcting it is that a player could glance at the clock, think they N seconds left and not take a shot they could have taken when you declare time expired when the clock still reads 2-3 seconds.

[JugglingReferee]

There is no way to look good in this sitch. There are only two fair things to do:

Re-start the throw-in with :03 and give the timer a wink.

Continue your count, note when your 3 seconds expired, and if an appreciable delay exists between that time and the horn, kill the play. This scenario is more dangerous.

GBTB and putting :01 is not a fair way to end the game. It is taking the game away from the players.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
There is no way to look good in this sitch. There are only two fair things to do:

Re-start the throw-in with :03 and give the timer a wink.

Continue your count, note when your 3 seconds expired, and if an appreciable delay exists between that time and the horn, kill the play. This scenario is more dangerous.

GBTB and putting :01 is not a fair way to end the game. It is taking the game away from the players.

I never worry about taking the game away from the oplayers. The players don't control the game. The officials do.

No way are the officials authorized to declare a do-over.

I vote for keeping the count and ending the game when your count gets to 3.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I never worry about taking the game away from the oplayers. The players don't control the game. The officials do.

No way are the officials authorized to declare a do-over.

I vote for keeping the count and ending the game when your count gets to 3.

And what is going to happen when the point guard briefly glances at the clock and thinks he has 3 seconds left to make a play only to have you blow the whistle and declare the game over?

I think that, unless a shooting motion has already started or is obviously about to start, the only safe thing to do is kill the play, fix the clock, and resume with a throwin.