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-   -   Reset shot clock before FT on correctable error? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/23809-reset-shot-clock-before-ft-correctable-error.html)

Dan_ref Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
That was my first reaction as well Mark, but the rule says try for a goal, not try for a field goal.
However, looking through the rulebook, the phrase "try for goal" is used completely synonymously with "try for field goal."
Yep, I noticed that too.

This play is fully covered by 2-3.

assignmentmaker Thu Dec 22, 2005 01:08am
Re: Re: Well, for one thing
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Here's what happened tonight. After A1 shoots the ball, A2 pushes B1 and is called for the foul. Team B is in the bonus, but we give the ball to B out of bounds. B inbounds and brings the ball upcourt. After a few seconds, I realize that we should have shot 1-1. I blow my whistle and recognize the correctable error. We put B1 on the line to shoot 1-1. The timer asks, "Do we reset the shot clock?" I think for a moment and decide yes, but I'm thinking to myself that I'd better look it up in the rulebook when I get home. So I did a quick look, but I don't see any rule that tells me that I should reset.

Thoughts? Rule reference?
The shot clock is reset when a foul occurs.

A foul has occurred. You have just gotten around to properly recognizing it.
No, we recognized the foul (reported it, etc) and reset the shot clock when we gave the ball to B to inbounds. When I stopped play to deal with the correctable error, the foul had occurred 17 seconds previously.
Like I said, you have just gotten around to properly recognizing it. Reset the shot clock.

assignmentmaker Thu Dec 22, 2005 01:10am
The Fed rules reference the shot clock?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I say reset the clock (2-10-4 in the 2004 rulebook). No change of posession, so you start as after "any normal freethrow." I, for one, have never seen a shot clock at less than 35(30) during a FT.
The Fed rules reference the shot clock?

assignmentmaker Thu Dec 22, 2005 01:12am
That's another, even more reasonable reason
 
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I say reset the clock (2-10-4 in the 2004 rulebook). No change of posession, so you start as after "any normal freethrow." I, for one, have never seen a shot clock at less than 35(30) during a FT.
That was my reasoning, too. But if you look at when the shot-clock operator is supposed to reset (2-14 in the 2006 NCAA rulebook), it's hard to find which situation applies.
It's is? 2-1-4-6b seems to apply: "When a foul occurs (exceptions:" (double or simultaneous foul; T on offense)

Look at it this way -- Team control will be lost on the FTs, so whoever gets the rebound, or inbounds the ball, will have a full shot-clock.
That's another, even more reasonable reason.

Lotto Thu Dec 22, 2005 09:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
This play is fully covered by 2-3.
I think that's my conclusion as well!

Lotto Thu Dec 22, 2005 09:12am
Re: That's another, even more reasonable reason
 
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Look at it this way -- Team control will be lost on the FTs, so whoever gets the rebound, or inbounds the ball, will have a full shot-clock.
That's another, even more reasonable reason.
That's a dangerous way to start thinking. Team control is lost on an out-of-bounds violation, on a double foul, on a held ball, but the shot-clock is not always reset in these situations. The team that next gains will not always have a full shot-clock to work with.

Mark Dexter Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:02am
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I say reset the clock (2-10-4 in the 2004 rulebook). No change of posession, so you start as after "any normal freethrow." I, for one, have never seen a shot clock at less than 35(30) during a FT.
That was my reasoning, too. But if you look at when the shot-clock operator is supposed to reset (2-14 in the 2006 NCAA rulebook), it's hard to find which situation applies.
It's is? 2-1-4-6b seems to apply: "When a foul occurs (exceptions:" (double or simultaneous foul; T on offense)

Look at it this way -- Team control will be lost on the FTs, so whoever gets the rebound, or inbounds the ball, will have a full shot-clock.
Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control.

Again, I think the shot clock should be reset, but I can't come up with a good rule reference as to why.

Dan_ref Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:10am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I say reset the clock (2-10-4 in the 2004 rulebook). No change of posession, so you start as after "any normal freethrow." I, for one, have never seen a shot clock at less than 35(30) during a FT.
That was my reasoning, too. But if you look at when the shot-clock operator is supposed to reset (2-14 in the 2006 NCAA rulebook), it's hard to find which situation applies.
It's is? 2-1-4-6b seems to apply: "When a foul occurs (exceptions:" (double or simultaneous foul; T on offense)

Look at it this way -- Team control will be lost on the FTs, so whoever gets the rebound, or inbounds the ball, will have a full shot-clock.
Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control.

Again, I think the shot clock should be reset, but I can't come up with a good rule reference as to why.
But I already posted a good reason why it should not be reset: in some cases you give a team a shot clock period greater than 35 seconds for free and due to your own error. No way this is an intended consequence.

Reset it if the non-shooting team gets the rebound. Do not reset it when either team consumed time off the shot clock & gets the ball back after the FTs.

assignmentmaker Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:50am
Re: Re: That's another, even more reasonable reason
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Look at it this way -- Team control will be lost on the FTs, so whoever gets the rebound, or inbounds the ball, will have a full shot-clock.
That's another, even more reasonable reason.
That's a dangerous way to start thinking. Team control is lost on an out-of-bounds violation, on a double foul, on a held ball, but the shot-clock is not always reset in these situations. The team that next gains will not always have a full shot-clock to work with.
Not under the circumstances at issue.

assignmentmaker Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:53am
a distinction without a difference?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I say reset the clock (2-10-4 in the 2004 rulebook). No change of posession, so you start as after "any normal freethrow." I, for one, have never seen a shot clock at less than 35(30) during a FT.
That was my reasoning, too. But if you look at when the shot-clock operator is supposed to reset (2-14 in the 2006 NCAA rulebook), it's hard to find which situation applies.
It's is? 2-1-4-6b seems to apply: "When a foul occurs (exceptions:" (double or simultaneous foul; T on offense)

Look at it this way -- Team control will be lost on the FTs, so whoever gets the rebound, or inbounds the ball, will have a full shot-clock.
Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control.

Again, I think the shot clock should be reset, but I can't come up with a good rule reference as to why.
"Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control."

When a team loses control, the shot clock is going to be reset, is it not? When it runs again is another issue.

assignmentmaker Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:55am
Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Lotto
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I say reset the clock (2-10-4 in the 2004 rulebook). No change of posession, so you start as after "any normal freethrow." I, for one, have never seen a shot clock at less than 35(30) during a FT.
That was my reasoning, too. But if you look at when the shot-clock operator is supposed to reset (2-14 in the 2006 NCAA rulebook), it's hard to find which situation applies.
It's is? 2-1-4-6b seems to apply: "When a foul occurs (exceptions:" (double or simultaneous foul; T on offense)

Look at it this way -- Team control will be lost on the FTs, so whoever gets the rebound, or inbounds the ball, will have a full shot-clock.
Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control.

Again, I think the shot clock should be reset, but I can't come up with a good rule reference as to why.
Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?

ChuckElias Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:14pm
Re: a distinction without a difference?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
When a team loses control, the shot clock is going to be reset, is it not? When it runs again is another issue.
Nope, Jeff. As Mark pointed out, team control is lost when a try is released. But if the try is an airball, there is no reset if control is re-gained by the offensive team.

The short version that I give my HS shot clock operators is as follows:

"There are only 4 times we reset the shot clock. 1) Any change of possession, that includes a made basket. 2) Any time the ball hits the rim on a try. 3) Any foul. 4) A defensive violation, like a kick. That's it. That's the list."

Now, that's simplified, and it's not quite right b/c of the NCAA change in the kick rule's enforcement and NCAA T's that go to the POI. But even if I gave the absolutely correct list, you wouldn't find "loss of team control" on the list anywhere.

ChuckElias Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:14pm
Re: Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker
Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?
It's not. Not even as a state adoption.

Dan_ref Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:15pm
Re: a distinction without a difference?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker

"Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control."

When a team loses control, the shot clock is going to be reset, is it not?
Not always.

Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker

Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?


It's not.

assignmentmaker Thu Dec 22, 2005 04:14pm
Re: Re: a distinction without a difference?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker

"Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control."

When a team loses control, the shot clock is going to be reset, is it not?
Not always.

Quote:
Originally posted by assignmentmaker

Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?


It's not.
"When a team loses control, the shot clock is going to be reset, is it not?

Not always."

Yah, during a throw-in, for example, when the ball is out off the defense . . .

Still, the whole thing is a tempest in a tea pot.


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