Here's what happened tonight. After A1 shoots the ball, A2 pushes B1 and is called for the foul. Team B is in the bonus, but we give the ball to B out of bounds. B inbounds and brings the ball upcourt. After a few seconds, I realize that we should have shot 1-1. I blow my whistle and recognize the correctable error. We put B1 on the line to shoot 1-1. The timer asks, "Do we reset the shot clock?" I think for a moment and decide yes, but I'm thinking to myself that I'd better look it up in the rulebook when I get home. So I did a quick look, but I don't see any rule that tells me that I should reset.

Thoughts? Rule reference?

Well, for one thing
 

The shot clock is reset when a foul occurs.

A foul has occurred. You have just gotten around to properly recognizing it.

Re: Well, for one thing
 

No, we recognized the foul (reported it, etc) and reset the shot clock when we gave the ball to B to inbounds. When I stopped play to deal with the correctable error, the foul had occurred 17 seconds previously.

I say reset the clock (2-10-4 in the 2004 rulebook). No change of posession, so you start as after "any normal freethrow." I, for one, have never seen a shot clock at less than 35(30) during a FT.

That was my reasoning, too. But if you look at when the shot-clock operator is supposed to reset (2-14 in the 2006 NCAA rulebook), it's hard to find which situation applies.

It's is? 2-1-4-6b seems to apply: "When a foul occurs (exceptions:" (double or simultaneous foul; T on offense)

Look at it this way -- Team control will be lost on the FTs, so whoever gets the rebound, or inbounds the ball, will have a full shot-clock.

As this applies to FED rules, I believe time is not put back on the game clock, correct?

As I said above, the foul occured 17 seconds previous to when the correctable error was recognized. The clock was properly reset at that point.

Also, the clock is not reset on loss of team control, but rather when the other team gains control.

I believe that it's right to reset the shot clock in this scenario; I'm just looking for a rules justification of that opinion.

I'm not comfortable giving B those 17 seconds back on the shot clock if they secure the rebound after their free throw. In that case they earned a 52 second shot clock period by your mistake. So I'm tempted to say reset the shot clock after the FT only if A takes possession on the rebound or after a made FT. I can't back this up by rule.

Similarly I would not reset the shot clock if we were going back to POI after the attempted FTs (ie A had team possession in your play).

Of course you reset it. The shot clock is reset any time a try for goal strikes the rim. When the FT shooter releases his try, it either hits the rim or it doesn't. If it does, then you reset for striking the rim. If it doesn't, then you reset b/c the defense gets control.

Hmmmm...lessee...

You do not start the shot clock on a FT.

and

Wording here strongly implies the shot clock must be running in order to reset it when it hits...if not how else would you stop it AND reset it?

I originally thought this, too, but I think it is incorrect reasoning. By definition, a try for goal is a 2 or 3-point shot, and a FT is not a try.

That was my first reaction as well Mark, but the rule says try for a goal, not try for a field goal. And:

However, looking through the rulebook, the phrase "try for goal" is used completely synonymously with "try for field goal."

Reset and shoot the FT's, when possession is gained by either team the shot clock will wind down from 35/30.

[Edited by icallfouls on Dec 21st, 2005 at 05:54 PM]

Yep, I noticed that too.

This play is fully covered by 2-3.

Re: Re: Well, for one thing
 

Like I said, you have just gotten around to properly recognizing it. Reset the shot clock.

The Fed rules reference the shot clock?
 

The Fed rules reference the shot clock?

That's another, even more reasonable reason
 

That's another, even more reasonable reason.

I think that's my conclusion as well!

Re: That's another, even more reasonable reason
 

That's a dangerous way to start thinking. Team control is lost on an out-of-bounds violation, on a double foul, on a held ball, but the shot-clock is not always reset in these situations. The team that next gains will not always have a full shot-clock to work with.

Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control.

Again, I think the shot clock should be reset, but I can't come up with a good rule reference as to why.

But I already posted a good reason why it should not be reset: in some cases you give a team a shot clock period greater than 35 seconds for free and due to your own error. No way this is an intended consequence.

Reset it if the non-shooting team gets the rebound. Do not reset it when either team consumed time off the shot clock & gets the ball back after the FTs.

Re: Re: That's another, even more reasonable reason
 

Not under the circumstances at issue.

a distinction without a difference?
 

"Problem is that the shot clock isn't reset on the loss of team control, it is reset when the opponent gains team control."

When a team loses control, the shot clock is going to be reset, is it not? When it runs again is another issue.

Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?
 

Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?

Re: a distinction without a difference?
 

Nope, Jeff. As Mark pointed out, team control is lost when a try is released. But if the try is an airball, there is no reset if control is re-gained by the offensive team.

The short version that I give my HS shot clock operators is as follows:

"There are only 4 times we reset the shot clock. 1) Any change of possession, that includes a made basket. 2) Any time the ball hits the rim on a try. 3) Any foul. 4) A defensive violation, like a kick. That's it. That's the list."

Now, that's simplified, and it's not quite right b/c of the NCAA change in the kick rule's enforcement and NCAA T's that go to the POI. But even if I gave the absolutely correct list, you wouldn't find "loss of team control" on the list anywhere.

Re: Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?
 

It's not. Not even as a state adoption.

Re: a distinction without a difference?
 

Not always.



It's not.

Re: Re: a distinction without a difference?
 

"When a team loses control, the shot clock is going to be reset, is it not?

Not always."

Yah, during a throw-in, for example, when the ball is out off the defense . . .

Still, the whole thing is a tempest in a tea pot.

Re: Re: Re: a distinction without a difference?
 

That's not a loss of control.

Chuck gave the example I was thinking of.

Re: Re: Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?
 

This is why I hate when leagues adopt a shot clock. They never list out the full rules that they want to use for resetting, and they can't just say "use NCAA rules," as those conflict with NFHS rules.

Whenever I do/assist with the shot clock for prep basketball games, my mind is filled with a jumble of NCAA and NFHS rules and interpretations.

Re: Re: Re: Where is the shot clock referenced in Fed rules?
 

NY girls basketball uses NCAA rules, with a few modifications (quarters instead of halves, Ts get ball at division line instead of POI, etc). Our shot clock is run by NCAA rules.