We try and cover in Pre Game feelings about long distance calls. Usually ends up with a "lets get it right" but just discussing it usually uncovers territorial referee's.

That said Long Calls (IMHO) make both officials look a bit out of whack and can bring the crew into question and scrutiny.

Let it go.

Team A was up by 6-7, 4-5 minute left in the game.....

Before the steal, the ball was being pushed up the court, right behind me, at a very fast speed. Being the L @ the time, running fast from half court to end line, then crashing down on post player. Then the steal was made on top of the key, the boy came very fast from left to the right. By the time I stopped, put it into Rev, back tracked, and got back to the FT line, the layup was taking a twist.

The steal was hard to judge at first, looked like he would go in bye himself on the layup.

I called the foul on the other end, to have control of the game, the kids/gym were very excited from the layup..... I wasn't about to let the game get out of control.....

A won by 2

Now I'm confused. Can we run through this sequence of events with various steals and turns and refs identified with social security numbers? Please? Use A1, B1, A2, B2, use north and south to specify direction on the court, and use Ref T (your partner) and Ref O (yourself).

That's T's opinion. Maybe L saw A1 anticipate the contact, twist, and land with no real contact (or contact not sufficient to be a foul).

Hey bob,
How did I get put into defensive mode? :)

With a solid partner, or with a partner that I do not know, I feel no compunction to help.

My fixation on this thread was the T seeing definite contact, having a rookie-ish partner that needed help and being willing to step up and bail out my partner with an AT&T that I saw and the crowd thought they saw.

My very first line on this thread was "If that's me and I wanna get that foul...." described the mechanic I would use.
From there I proposed an alternative to *never helping* and *maybe helping*.

By and large, I will totally trust my partner and leave that 70' call to the other guy. [<I>Whew! I got dog-piled!</I> :)]

mick

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BIG O
[B]Team A was up by 6-7, 4-5 minute left in the game.....

Before the steal, the ball was being pushed up the court, right behind me, at a very fast speed. Being the L @ the time, running fast from half court to end line, then crashing down on post player. Then the steal was made on top of the key, the boy came very fast from left to the right. By the time I stopped, put it into Rev, back tracked, and got back to the FT line, the layup was taking a twist. [QUOTE]


It sounds like the L (Big O) is out of his primary if
he sees a steal at the top of the key.

Quote:

The steal was hard to judge at first, looked like he would go in bye himself on the layup. I called the foul on the other end, to have control of the game, the kids/gym were very excited from the layup..... I wasn't about to let the game get out of control..... A won by 2

Sounds more like the vet got tired because of the
pace of play. The game had a call that was not
liked by one team, then to go get one at the other end
after that only compounds the perceived wrong. The
rook made a gutsy (or boneheaded) call, and vet
just piled on. ;)

My last thought on the whole thing. Was the call the
rook made an OH MY GOD? If not, save it for the post-
game.

Simply because you partner is a rookie doesn't mean he made a bad call. Where was he situated? If he was properly positioned he more than likely had a better view of the play than you.

Had he given you reason to mistrust his calls prior this play?

Sure you did the right thing, if the game was competitive.
 

Get the game right. In the 2-whistle game, the true game, I always tell my partner "If you see it and you believe it and you think I missed it and it matters, call it. We'll work it out."

Granted, I wasn't there, and this may be harsh, but there's no way that the new trail should be that far away if there are two defenders who were able to get back on the layup in a boys varsity game. There are very many reasons why the call could've been missed or correctly called a travel, one of which may have been that the rook didn't pick up the secondary defender who may have contacted the shooter on the weak side. There are many times in transition with two defenders that the new L can easily miss contact initiated by the secondary defender, either a push or a grab, and the trail needs to pick that up (in other words, the slot call in 3 person). With the trail out of position to help, you're putting this young official on an island in a big situation, NO WAY can you make a call on subtle contact from that far away, but I think this is a classic help call that the trail has to be in position to make. This is a strange situation, particularly since the player didn't release a shot, and even further put the rookie on an island. Maybe the young official, in a tight situation decided to call the obvious and call only what he sees, and since he didn't see the foul and didn't want to guess, he made the only call available, the travel.

The new trail must help on this play and pick up the secondary defender. Because you weren't there, in position, you put the rookie in a position where he had to guess and basically threw him to the wolves. I agree, why was the trail 70 feet away?

Coming out of your area to get it that far...

Grandma better be able to see it from the top row.
I have to be 110% sure I'm right on the call.

In your situation. No foul and let the travel stand.

I just read all three pages of this thread and wanted to hit the quote button many times, in response to a post. IMO, Bob and Dan have this situation in check. I think many others just want to run past 7 players to watch three and make a call. Why? The T has also been criticized for not making it down the court. Why? Again, why should he run past all the other players so he can get into a good T position for a break?

When reading posts about his position during the shot, it makes me wonder how many people have officiated a BV game lately with 2 people. There will be plays where you can't make it to the position you would be at during a half court set. 10 (players) divided by two (officials) is 5 (to watch), right? I think the T was handling more than his fair share on this play, even though he hasn't mentioned watching those 7 other players.

By the way, does Trail mean we should trail the ball or the players? I was taught to trail the players, which in this case 7 were not involved in the play. Things could happen far worse than a perceived call that was missed.

Is a 5th year official that is new to varsity really a rookie? I would hope that he has developed a feel for the game at this point in his career. Also, O did not mention whether he asked the "rookie" what he saw on the play and his response. Like it was mentioned previously, since the player landed on his feet, it might have been a play the L passed on. We also didn't hear of any reaction from the 3 players involved in the play or what type of player A1 had been up to this point. To me, all this plays a part in what could have happened BUT, I'm not going to look past 7 players to make such a long-distance call.

I don't think the credibility of the rookie goes down, I think the credibility of the T goes down. You would/could be perceived as an official who is ball-watching and if I was so inclined - as a coach - I might try to take advantage of this by doing something boarderline off-ball. How can you explain to coach B what you saw from 70 feet away that the L couldn't see right on the play? I just thought of this - was A1 facing away from the T (probably) during the shot (which wasn't really a shot)? O, where do you think the contact occured?

I'm sorry for the sarcastic comments in my post. However, I don't think enough posters are giving a reason why the T shouldn't make this call as opposed to the many who are saying why he should have made this call. The reasons for not making this call are far more mechanically sound. Also, the performance of the "rookie" is the responsibility of the "rookie" and the assigner who puts him in games (situations).

My 2 cents, and I got my money's worth!

Where in the post did it say the other 7 players all stayed deep in the backcourt?

In 2 person, you do not always have the luxury of boxing in all 10 players on every play, if you want to call the game, anyway.

I can't speak for everyone, but the question asked was should trail get this?

My response was that if trail would have ran, they would have:

a) Seen the play better, to know if they actually needed to help.

b) Been in a position to close and make a call from a reasonable distance and not 70 feet.

Not to sound mean, but unless you are in an area that is still using 2 person and are having to cover the court without that backside help of a center official, perhaps those questioning the need for trail to bust arse to help in 2 person coverage, need to re-look at the situation.;)

TOMEGUN

The rook is a 5 game virgin, not 5 years, 3 years at JV & 9th. Too young for V? Need to start somewhere, two very small schools, less the 80 in the HS.......

The next TO, rook came over and said "sorry I missed that foul" then after the game he wanted me to hit him for some kind of pay back?

As for the 3 layup players, B1 & B2 aint going to say anything, after A1's foul on the other side, he states " No call on the layup, but then call one on me down here".


AS for "credibility", I'm lost alittle on what your saying? If I make the long call? Between partners or between coach & ref?

As for "ball-watching", as your watching the post, you can easily see the key. After the steal, my main objective was with the other 7. A1 & I came up the same side, his back to me, I really didn't see all the contact, watching the 7 other mostly.

Two days later, talking to the newspaper photographer, he was under the layup basket, he stated that the layup had very little contact..... It was the bodies flopping and the twist that turnned the gym into a blender.

Big O,

I think you have answered your own question with this one statement. From the reaction you quoted of the crowd, I'm guessing A1 was a home team player, and home team crowd barked for a call. Your partner stated he "missed the foul", but you stated you didn't see all of the contact. Don't guess, know. You aren't 150% sure you saw something, you don't make a call.

Had a similar sitch, 3 person crew, I'm L in frontcourt. Team A leading by 12, 4th quarter, 3 minutes or so, taking air out of ball. A4 holding out front, near the division line, trapped by B1 and B2, partner right on top of the play. Two defenders applying pressure, when A4 lays an elbow into the chest of B2 and pushes to the floor. My reaction was "Oh! Oh my!! Oh my God!!! TWEET!!!" Made call from L, no idea what partner or C were doing, B2 layed on ground for two seconds before I blew whistle. Coach for A had only one question/statement: "Good call, why wasn't there any contact called when my player was trapped?" Response: "Coach, can't answer for my partner, but that was so obvious someone had to get it." Coach A agreed and sat back down. No problems rest of the game.

After game, asked partner what was missed, just kinda getting the game overwith. Fortunately had worked with this partner before, so no major issues. But dang!!

This is just my opinion, but I think the "I was staying with the other 7" is a copout. Our job as officials is to call the obvious and we need to referee competitive matchups. Now I wasn't there and the post does not mention whether there were problems between players or a potential situation that may have erupted between players earlier in the game, but if not, in 2 whistle, the trail has to help out with the play. In a varsity game the officials should know by the 4th quarter who the hotheads are, or if there are any, most of the time there won't be any hotheads and 9999 times out of 10000 plays like this, the rest of the players are moving up the court and nothing happens. Again, the trail has no competitive matchups in the backcourt, so basically by staying 70 feet away, he's officiating dead space while leaving his partner hanging out to dry on backside help. Plus, from the long range description here, the new trail was not watching the players, but was watching the play from a distance where he couldn't help. Too many things can happen with 2 defenders, the trail must be in position to help out with the call (and who's to say he can't also look back at the other players while sprinting into position to make the call).

Plus, judging by the comment the rook made, the reaction of the crowd and the lack of help shook his confidence. Hopefully it didn't affect him the rest of the game.