Varsity game, my partner is a varsity rookie, 5th game. A1 makes a steal & has the entire court to go in for a layup. I'm the T & along ways from the basket (aleast 3/4 of the court). As A1 went in for a strong layup, B1 & B2 came in fast from the side of A1. A1 hangs onto his shot, while being twisted in the air from little contact from B1 or B2. A1 lands on both feet with the ball in his hands, while B1 & B2 go flying across the floor on backs or bellies. My partner the L, blows the whistle, followed by "TRAVELING"... The gym is like a blender.

Now in the past, I've told many partners, many times before to never make a long distance call while I'm right on top of the play. Should I eat my own words and have made the 70' foul call on this rookie? Should I stop telling my partners this?

By the way, I didn't get involved in the layup. But then made things worse by called a foul right away on the other end on that same A1 layup player....... That also turned on the blender again.


BIG "O"

If it was just a "little" contact, and he didn't judge it to be a foul, it sounds like he had a better angle on it then you did. If he missed a big white elephant, then go get it. Otherwise, leave it be.

Let it go, "O". If you step in there, you'll destroy whatever credibility the rook has. Every call that he makes after that is gonna be viewed as wrong by the coaches and fans. Talk to him after, if you think it will help him. If you step in long-distance, you're hurting him. It's all part of a rookie's learning process. We all were there once too.

If that's me and I wanna get that foul, then I am calling the foul and running to close down with my fist in the air, over-selling it and ending up 20' from the call.

More often then not, a partner will say, "Thanks for gittin' that."
Mileage may vary.
mick

Rook didn't see it, JR.
Bad angle.
Too close.
I'll help. :)
mick

Don't eat them unless you have a play that has a serious impact upon the game. If this is late in the 4th in a 1 point game, do it. But by all means be sprinting to the spot as you whistle! Explain it to your partner later. I'd thank mine, especially if my view was blocked and he got it right. I take it from your description that this was a 2 whistle crew not a 3.

My question is why if A1 has the entire court to go after the steal, why is the varsity vet still 70' away?

A1 must really have some wheels to go 70+ feet to your 15.

This is a tough balancing act, between going out of your area to make a call, to get a call right, to letting your partner "live or die" with their call. I've always heard the saying, "only call out of your area if everyone in the gym saw it except your partner". Easy in theory, but it's hard in practice.

From your description, there was a "little contact from B1 or B2". So who would you call the foul on, B1 or B2? Do you know for sure there was contact? Do you think maybe the shooter saw both players coming hard, braced for heavy contact (held on to the shot), then came down with little or no contact after all?

By all means, come in with a call, even cross-country, if it's real obvious. But in this case, it sounds like you weren't real sure, so perhaps the right thing to do was let it go.

Quick steal near division line.

Let me throw out a similar situation, except I was on the "other end", so to speak. I was trail, 2-person BV game. Players from team A passing the ball above the key, pass gets tipped, I have to duck out of the way of first the ball, then A1 going after the loose ball. I get turned around to make sure A1 saves it before going in the backcourt, then spin around just in time to see A2 catch it, jumping from the backcourt, but one foot already in the frontcourt. From my angle, looked like a good save. My partner comes out from the baseline and calls the over-and-back violation. The crowd went semi-nuts, and of course team A's coach wants to know 1)why was that a violation, and 2)why was he calling it from way over there? We talked about it after the game, and his explanation was he saw me get turned around, and he was "pretty sure" A2 caught it in the air before coming down, so he thought he should come out with the call. Judging from the crowd reaction (ok, not always a good indicator, but sometimes you can tell), it might've been a wrong call. Or, at least, not an obviously wrong call. But it sure ended up looking bad for both of us. I told him in that case, if he would've let it go and I missed the call, I would rather take the little bit of heat for missing that call, than the mess that erupted with him coming out that far on a close call.

Hmmm, sounds like my speed.

The 15' part.

On that particular type of play, I won't help, Mick. The shooter landed on his feet. If the defenders hadda put the shooter into the third row or onto his butt- hard, then maybe I might think about it. But not on a (also maybe) touch-foul from 70' feet away though. Jmo, but if you do that you're telling the world that the rook don't know what he's doing.

I agree with you.

And I'll tell you what else I wouldn't have done: I would not have called a foul on A1 at the other end after this mess. Then I would be telling the world I don't know what I'm doing.

Assignors don't get calls from coaches/AD's/whomever for getting plays right.

Now with that said, the rook's cred is gone, confidence is going in the tank, and is likely to be distracted for some time if you make that call.

At some point we all have to swim in our own crap, but hopefully we learn from it. Let him live and die with it.

[Edited by icallfouls on Dec 14th, 2005 at 07:02 PM]

Just think, one good thing could come out of making the call. At least you were close to the table to report it! :)

JR,
The [little] contact caused the shooter to twist in the air.
Looked like it coulda been enough, even from 70' away. ;)
mick

BZ -- I think the rookie was new lead, O was new trail. O was 70 feet away from the call, rookie was close to it. O was questioning whether O should have called a foul from 70 feet, when it was clearly rookie's call, and O has a hard and fast rule not to do what he now wishes he could do.

Maybe he didn't want to leave the other 7 players behind him?

JR,
The [little] contact caused the shooter to twist in the air.
Looked like it coulda been enough, even from 70' away. ;)
mick
[/B][/QUOTE]From 70' away though, how can you tell who caused the contact that made the shooter twist-- the shooter or one of the defenders?

If you can, you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. :D

Maybe he stopped for a donut?

From 70' away though, how can you tell who caused the contact that made the shooter twist-- the shooter or one of the defenders?

If you can, you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Just to be clear...70' away is below the OTHER free throw line.

Maybe he had to check his email to see if a donut was available??

"A1 makes a steal & has the entire court to go in for a layup."

Hmmmm?

Court is 84 feet, old lead covered less than 15 feet between steal and contact.

Perhaps if varsity vet was running that 70' foot long call becomes a 50 foot long call with the ability to cut that down to 30 feet while closing with a sell.;)

Well, ...I can see <I>part of a</I> povaticia on my kitchen table 20' away.
mick

[Edited by mick on Dec 14th, 2005 at 10:26 PM]

Oooohhh...let's do this again!

Maybe he didn't want to leave the other 7 players behind him?

JR and Dan.
Old lead was concentrating on post play as A1 took the ball on the dead run near the division line.
New trail whipped up the side, saw the contact.
Why can't you guys see that? Yer 600-1,000 miles closer than I am!
Geez!
mick

Not me Mick.

If I'm L when B1 steals the ball & heads down court I'm gonna hang back with the other players hanging back.

Let the new L hauls @ss down court to make his call, that's what he's getting paid to do. And his call aint none of my business.

I'm getting paid to make sure A5 doesn't cold-cock B5 in the backcourt. Or at least witness it.

Chuck coulda got there.

Geeze Mick, *I* coulda got there.

If Chuck was transitioning to new L he would have beat everyone down court.

If he was new T he would have hung back with the rest of the players to make sure they played fair. And let the new L do his job.

We try and cover in Pre Game feelings about long distance calls. Usually ends up with a "lets get it right" but just discussing it usually uncovers territorial referee's.

That said Long Calls (IMHO) make both officials look a bit out of whack and can bring the crew into question and scrutiny.

Let it go.

Team A was up by 6-7, 4-5 minute left in the game.....

Before the steal, the ball was being pushed up the court, right behind me, at a very fast speed. Being the L @ the time, running fast from half court to end line, then crashing down on post player. Then the steal was made on top of the key, the boy came very fast from left to the right. By the time I stopped, put it into Rev, back tracked, and got back to the FT line, the layup was taking a twist.

The steal was hard to judge at first, looked like he would go in bye himself on the layup.

I called the foul on the other end, to have control of the game, the kids/gym were very excited from the layup..... I wasn't about to let the game get out of control.....

A won by 2

Now I'm confused. Can we run through this sequence of events with various steals and turns and refs identified with social security numbers? Please? Use A1, B1, A2, B2, use north and south to specify direction on the court, and use Ref T (your partner) and Ref O (yourself).

That's T's opinion. Maybe L saw A1 anticipate the contact, twist, and land with no real contact (or contact not sufficient to be a foul).

Hey bob,
How did I get put into defensive mode? :)

With a solid partner, or with a partner that I do not know, I feel no compunction to help.

My fixation on this thread was the T seeing definite contact, having a rookie-ish partner that needed help and being willing to step up and bail out my partner with an AT&T that I saw and the crowd thought they saw.

My very first line on this thread was "If that's me and I wanna get that foul...." described the mechanic I would use.
From there I proposed an alternative to *never helping* and *maybe helping*.

By and large, I will totally trust my partner and leave that 70' call to the other guy. [<I>Whew! I got dog-piled!</I> :)]

mick

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BIG O
[B]Team A was up by 6-7, 4-5 minute left in the game.....

Before the steal, the ball was being pushed up the court, right behind me, at a very fast speed. Being the L @ the time, running fast from half court to end line, then crashing down on post player. Then the steal was made on top of the key, the boy came very fast from left to the right. By the time I stopped, put it into Rev, back tracked, and got back to the FT line, the layup was taking a twist. [QUOTE]


It sounds like the L (Big O) is out of his primary if
he sees a steal at the top of the key.

Quote:

The steal was hard to judge at first, looked like he would go in bye himself on the layup. I called the foul on the other end, to have control of the game, the kids/gym were very excited from the layup..... I wasn't about to let the game get out of control..... A won by 2

Sounds more like the vet got tired because of the
pace of play. The game had a call that was not
liked by one team, then to go get one at the other end
after that only compounds the perceived wrong. The
rook made a gutsy (or boneheaded) call, and vet
just piled on. ;)

My last thought on the whole thing. Was the call the
rook made an OH MY GOD? If not, save it for the post-
game.

Simply because you partner is a rookie doesn't mean he made a bad call. Where was he situated? If he was properly positioned he more than likely had a better view of the play than you.

Had he given you reason to mistrust his calls prior this play?

Sure you did the right thing, if the game was competitive.
 

Get the game right. In the 2-whistle game, the true game, I always tell my partner "If you see it and you believe it and you think I missed it and it matters, call it. We'll work it out."

Granted, I wasn't there, and this may be harsh, but there's no way that the new trail should be that far away if there are two defenders who were able to get back on the layup in a boys varsity game. There are very many reasons why the call could've been missed or correctly called a travel, one of which may have been that the rook didn't pick up the secondary defender who may have contacted the shooter on the weak side. There are many times in transition with two defenders that the new L can easily miss contact initiated by the secondary defender, either a push or a grab, and the trail needs to pick that up (in other words, the slot call in 3 person). With the trail out of position to help, you're putting this young official on an island in a big situation, NO WAY can you make a call on subtle contact from that far away, but I think this is a classic help call that the trail has to be in position to make. This is a strange situation, particularly since the player didn't release a shot, and even further put the rookie on an island. Maybe the young official, in a tight situation decided to call the obvious and call only what he sees, and since he didn't see the foul and didn't want to guess, he made the only call available, the travel.

The new trail must help on this play and pick up the secondary defender. Because you weren't there, in position, you put the rookie in a position where he had to guess and basically threw him to the wolves. I agree, why was the trail 70 feet away?

Coming out of your area to get it that far...

Grandma better be able to see it from the top row.
I have to be 110% sure I'm right on the call.

In your situation. No foul and let the travel stand.

I just read all three pages of this thread and wanted to hit the quote button many times, in response to a post. IMO, Bob and Dan have this situation in check. I think many others just want to run past 7 players to watch three and make a call. Why? The T has also been criticized for not making it down the court. Why? Again, why should he run past all the other players so he can get into a good T position for a break?

When reading posts about his position during the shot, it makes me wonder how many people have officiated a BV game lately with 2 people. There will be plays where you can't make it to the position you would be at during a half court set. 10 (players) divided by two (officials) is 5 (to watch), right? I think the T was handling more than his fair share on this play, even though he hasn't mentioned watching those 7 other players.

By the way, does Trail mean we should trail the ball or the players? I was taught to trail the players, which in this case 7 were not involved in the play. Things could happen far worse than a perceived call that was missed.

Is a 5th year official that is new to varsity really a rookie? I would hope that he has developed a feel for the game at this point in his career. Also, O did not mention whether he asked the "rookie" what he saw on the play and his response. Like it was mentioned previously, since the player landed on his feet, it might have been a play the L passed on. We also didn't hear of any reaction from the 3 players involved in the play or what type of player A1 had been up to this point. To me, all this plays a part in what could have happened BUT, I'm not going to look past 7 players to make such a long-distance call.

I don't think the credibility of the rookie goes down, I think the credibility of the T goes down. You would/could be perceived as an official who is ball-watching and if I was so inclined - as a coach - I might try to take advantage of this by doing something boarderline off-ball. How can you explain to coach B what you saw from 70 feet away that the L couldn't see right on the play? I just thought of this - was A1 facing away from the T (probably) during the shot (which wasn't really a shot)? O, where do you think the contact occured?

I'm sorry for the sarcastic comments in my post. However, I don't think enough posters are giving a reason why the T shouldn't make this call as opposed to the many who are saying why he should have made this call. The reasons for not making this call are far more mechanically sound. Also, the performance of the "rookie" is the responsibility of the "rookie" and the assigner who puts him in games (situations).

My 2 cents, and I got my money's worth!

Where in the post did it say the other 7 players all stayed deep in the backcourt?

In 2 person, you do not always have the luxury of boxing in all 10 players on every play, if you want to call the game, anyway.

I can't speak for everyone, but the question asked was should trail get this?

My response was that if trail would have ran, they would have:

a) Seen the play better, to know if they actually needed to help.

b) Been in a position to close and make a call from a reasonable distance and not 70 feet.

Not to sound mean, but unless you are in an area that is still using 2 person and are having to cover the court without that backside help of a center official, perhaps those questioning the need for trail to bust arse to help in 2 person coverage, need to re-look at the situation.;)

TOMEGUN

The rook is a 5 game virgin, not 5 years, 3 years at JV & 9th. Too young for V? Need to start somewhere, two very small schools, less the 80 in the HS.......

The next TO, rook came over and said "sorry I missed that foul" then after the game he wanted me to hit him for some kind of pay back?

As for the 3 layup players, B1 & B2 aint going to say anything, after A1's foul on the other side, he states " No call on the layup, but then call one on me down here".


AS for "credibility", I'm lost alittle on what your saying? If I make the long call? Between partners or between coach & ref?

As for "ball-watching", as your watching the post, you can easily see the key. After the steal, my main objective was with the other 7. A1 & I came up the same side, his back to me, I really didn't see all the contact, watching the 7 other mostly.

Two days later, talking to the newspaper photographer, he was under the layup basket, he stated that the layup had very little contact..... It was the bodies flopping and the twist that turnned the gym into a blender.

Big O,

I think you have answered your own question with this one statement. From the reaction you quoted of the crowd, I'm guessing A1 was a home team player, and home team crowd barked for a call. Your partner stated he "missed the foul", but you stated you didn't see all of the contact. Don't guess, know. You aren't 150% sure you saw something, you don't make a call.

Had a similar sitch, 3 person crew, I'm L in frontcourt. Team A leading by 12, 4th quarter, 3 minutes or so, taking air out of ball. A4 holding out front, near the division line, trapped by B1 and B2, partner right on top of the play. Two defenders applying pressure, when A4 lays an elbow into the chest of B2 and pushes to the floor. My reaction was "Oh! Oh my!! Oh my God!!! TWEET!!!" Made call from L, no idea what partner or C were doing, B2 layed on ground for two seconds before I blew whistle. Coach for A had only one question/statement: "Good call, why wasn't there any contact called when my player was trapped?" Response: "Coach, can't answer for my partner, but that was so obvious someone had to get it." Coach A agreed and sat back down. No problems rest of the game.

After game, asked partner what was missed, just kinda getting the game overwith. Fortunately had worked with this partner before, so no major issues. But dang!!

This is just my opinion, but I think the "I was staying with the other 7" is a copout. Our job as officials is to call the obvious and we need to referee competitive matchups. Now I wasn't there and the post does not mention whether there were problems between players or a potential situation that may have erupted between players earlier in the game, but if not, in 2 whistle, the trail has to help out with the play. In a varsity game the officials should know by the 4th quarter who the hotheads are, or if there are any, most of the time there won't be any hotheads and 9999 times out of 10000 plays like this, the rest of the players are moving up the court and nothing happens. Again, the trail has no competitive matchups in the backcourt, so basically by staying 70 feet away, he's officiating dead space while leaving his partner hanging out to dry on backside help. Plus, from the long range description here, the new trail was not watching the players, but was watching the play from a distance where he couldn't help. Too many things can happen with 2 defenders, the trail must be in position to help out with the call (and who's to say he can't also look back at the other players while sprinting into position to make the call).

Plus, judging by the comment the rook made, the reaction of the crowd and the lack of help shook his confidence. Hopefully it didn't affect him the rest of the game.

So, do you push a couple of the players out of the way so you can get up court and help your partner? And, then only if you hear a crowd reaction, do you look back to see if something's happening with the players you left behind?

It's not a copout, it's the trail's job to stay back and watch the other 7. This is, unfortunately, one of the disadvantages to 2-person mechanics. In 3-person, the C can certainly help with this situation, but in this case you don't have the "luxury" of that third set of eyes. It's the L's call.

Again, go back and read the original post - if you come that far, who do you call the foul on?

It is not the trail's job to stay back and watch the other 7 players.

I don't buy for a second that A1, B1 and B2 were the only players in the frontcourt and the other 7 were hanging out at the free throw line in the backcourt.

With this logic, where does trail draw the line of staying?

4 in the FC?

6?

8?

Or do they hang back until all 10 get there?

The official's manual says trail should be behind THE BALL not all the players. It's called transition for a reason.

Sorry partner, I have 3 players back at the free throw line, you have the other 7.:rolleyes:

Who's job is it?

First and I repeat, I don't buy that 7 players remained back.

Second in 2 person there is going to always be a trade off to see the play. So don't tell me that if the majority of players are moving to the other end, trail should hang back.

Like I said, where does trail draw the line?

8 players? 7? 6? 5? 4? 3? 2? 1? None in the BC?

Here's my thought.

70 ft away you could not possibly know what happened. If you partner missed afoul so what. How many did you miss that game?

Lastly what is you primary? It certainly wast the ball. Most coaches I know would chew you up for making the ATT call even if it was right.

You stay back only if there's a reason to stay back, such as a competitive matchup, or if there are volatile players in the backcourt, players on the ground, etc. In other words, if there is a legitimate reason to stay back. That doesn't mean you ignore everyone else, but your primary responsibility is to help the new lead with a potentially difficult call.

Similarly, if you have a whistle on the play in the backcourt while everyone's looking at the ball in the frontcourt, someone better be getting ejected or in some sort of trauma. If there's very little potential for this situation to happen, you need to be where the play is to referee the secondary defender. People just don't hit people out of the blue, and if you're refereeing the play and miss an attack in the backcourt like that, chances are that you missed a lot more earlier in the game that led to this.

Ok, we're arguing two different points - you're saying BIG O isn't telling the truth, that there really wasn't 7 players back, and he's just a slow, lazy ref who's making excuses for not having two sets of eyes on the ball. I'm talking about the play as posted, because I didn't have the luxury of being there. I have no basis to make the assumptions you have regarding the reliability of BIG O.

So, let's go back to the play as posted by BIG O, which, by the way, was a series of two different transitions as I read it. You seem to be advocating two different points that seem to go against the basics as I've been taught. In 2-person officiating, I have always been taught the officials keep the players between them - boxing in. Yes, that means hanging back while there are players in the backcourt. You seem to advocate leaving players behind you to get to the ball. Second, I've been taught the basics of trusting your partner and calling in your area. In this play you seem to be advocating having two sets of eyes on the ball and the three players, while leaving the other seven players behind. If this is a new mechanic, where do I find it?

It's just wrong to justify having two officials watch three players and the ball, while no one is watching the other seven. And you still have not answered my question - who are you going to call the foul on, B1 or B2? And why? Also, please tell me, in your mind, how many players can you safely leave behind to go be closer to a play? 2? 3? 7? 8?

2-person is hard in this day of faster, better players. But, there are still basics that need to be followed. The original question was essentially, should I go help a partner on a call even though I'm not 100% sure? The answer is still no, because of the basics of trusting your partner to make the call or no-call, unless even the grandmother in the top row realizes the call was wrong. In this case, it was not 100% clear.

I've been taught to bust your butt.

Go back to that first post and no mention was made about a "double" transition. That came up in the revised version.

It also came out after the first post that A1 got the ball below the arch on Big O's side of the floor, so...if it was transition with Big O as lead and the ball turned over below the 3 point line, wouldn't it be likely that some players are above the 3 point line or in the backcourt when it happened? So we are to believe that these players kept running AWAY from the play and then just stopped.

The entire thing smells fishy, to me.

You keep dodging my question, so I'll try one more time.

Boxing in all the players is great and all, but impossible all the time in 2 person, you have to trade off something to call the game.

The official's manual says trail should be behind the ball during play. Note it does not say between all the players and your partner.

I see you think staying with 7...even though I don't believe 7 stayed back for a second in this play...is proper, now comes the question, what ratio do you leave?

3/7 you will stay, what about 4/6 or 5/5?

Do you wait for the majority, 6/4?

Still back on 7/3? All 3 could be the same team, do you pause to check?

8/2?

9/1? That player could be flipping you off or taunting the other team's bench, after all, so do you risk leaving him/her versus "trusting" your partner with the other 9 players?;)

You keep dodging my questions; I've answered yours. In 2-person mechanics, it is the L's job in a fast-break transition to be on-ball, and the T's job to stay back with the other players and referee off-ball. So, answer my questions: who do you call the foul on? How many players do you leave behind? When do you advocate having both officials watch on-ball? Once again, I'm not arguing the truth of the original play, I'm giving advice on how the play was presented. So, when do you advocate over-ruling a partner's call or no-call?

Busting your butt is good. Busting your butt past players so you can make a borderline call in front of your partner is bad officiating.

Go back and read what I wrote several posts ago.

Had trail gotten to half court instead of staying at the free throw line in the BC, they'd be position to see the play better and be close enough to go get something if needed.

That is what I've been saying all along.

I'll continue to bust my butt and get in the FC with the players all moving that way...which is the case 99% of the time.

You hang back and appear lazy if you like, God forbid while you are back there babysitting a couple of stragglers, nothing gets missed where the game is going on.:rolleyes:

What exactly are you refereeing when staying back? Are you watching for an illegal screen 60 feet behind the play? Of course not because there's nothing to call in that situation, as I said earlier, if you're calling something off ball that has completely nothing to do with the play which is half a court ahead, there'd better be blood. What you can do is help your partner out in transition on the secondary defender on the weak side that he might not see. By helping out you allow him to avoid having to possibly guess or miss a foul in transition, a potentially emotional foul, which missing could easily lead to the crew losing control of the game (just see what happened in the original scenario).

Is there a chance that someone in the backcourt will deck someone? Of course, but it's minute and almost certainly something would have led up to that action. If you didn't see the buildup, the problem occured well before. As has been said, there are trade-offs in 2 whistle, and the odds greatly favor me hustling up and helping my partner, unless there's a clearly defined reason for me to stay that I can tell my supervisor.

Little things can ruin games, say partner misses the foul call that I could've helped on and the supervisor reviews the tape and asks me, "Why were you 70 feet away when you could've helped on that," it might be different where I am than you, but the response, "I was watching the other players" doesn't cut it if you don't have an explanation of why, along the lines of, "34 white and 55 blue had been jawing at each other and I wanted to referee that matchup to make sure nothing happened." Just watching the players with no explanation isn't enough, it looks bad and it leaves your crew hanging out to dry.

I will make a suggestion and you have to balance the two but Dont leave stragglers behind you. Even if there are just two that are being slow, get in a position to see them and the rest of the floor.

On a press I never let players get behind me and on fast breaks I keep all the players in front of me. You have to if you dont the time you dont there will be a fight or something else stupid and you'll have no clue what happened.

I always find it interesting that some people are always in favor of going against what is mechanically sound to watch the ball. You can always find a reason to watch the ball. How about finding a reason to stay back with 7 players who aren't going to announce, "Mr. Official, we are on the brink of fighting, pleas stay back and watch us."

I do work somewhere that does have two-man varsity games. You do what you can to survive. We must be mechanically sound to catch as many fouls as we can. That does not include passing judgement on plays 70ft away that we "think" might have been fouls.

We should commit errors of ommission instead of errors of commission. In other words, if you aren't sure (which big O doesn't seem to be) don't blow the whistle! It seems like big O is using the photographer and everyone in the crowd to help decide if this play, which wasn't in his area to begin with, was a foul or not. That should tell us what should have been done...nothing.

This is the best post I have read in a long long long time. Absolutely, 100% correct. (Except for the spelling of "pleas". :) )

Puh-leeze... :rolleyes:

btw...there's a word for officials who 'bust @ss' downcourt as new T on steals leaving opponents behind them: rookies.

It's not about ball watching, it's about getting the play right. When you have no competitive matchups in the backcourt, you move up to help your partner. It doesn't mean you completely ignore the rest of the players, but you don't say 70 feet away.

Also, no one's gonna say, "We're on the brink of fighting" but if you have game awareness you will know if there are problem players in the game who would have the potential of fighting by the 4th quarter. Using your knowledge of the game and common sense, moving up to help out the new lead here is something you gotta do. Staying back and justifying it weakly be saying "I was watching the other players" is just an excuse for being lazy and shirking responsibility. Again, how many times in your games has a fight broken out on a fast break in the backcourt? This isn't hockey.

And the ones who don't, there is a word too:

Lazy.:rolleyes:

I find it funny that those that have probably not done a 2 person game in forever are the ones giving an opinion.

How about spinning the original post, after all the play came up Big O's side of the floor.

What happens to all you straggler watchers, if A1 pulls up for the 3...IN YOUR PRIMARY...and there may be contact? Is it even a 3?

You now have left your partner judging if it's a 3 without an angle on the line, and judging contact in a stack.

This is not about being there to watch the play at the basket, it is about being there because we DON'T KNOW what the possible play will be. It is just as likely that something bad will happen with the second layer of players in the FC as the 2 kids farther back.

FYI, I did games yesterday and not one time during a fast break did 7 players stay 70 feet from the other end, NOT ONCE.

And who would these people be?

I worked a two-man varsity boys game on Friday, so I know he isn't talking about me!

There is always a reason to do something that ends up with an official watching the ball. I think it would send a better message to young officials if we try to point out the reasons for not watching the ball.

Again, when you have to ask everyone except the crossing guard if a player got fouled, you probably shouldn't make a call.

I guess I need to spell this out for you.

You are arguing something that was never said, nor even implied.

What you keep missing is perhaps, just perhaps, if Big O had not hung back 70 feet...and once again, when was the last time only 3 players moved to the frontcourt in transition in any of your games...he WOULD NOT HAVE TO ASK EVERYONE if his partner missed something or if he should go get something.

That is what we have been saying. NOT if he should be ball watching, NOT that he should be making an AT&T call, but that he needs to make it to the frontcourt with the players and be in position to help his partner.

This should be no different than a half court play. Trail has secondary areas and needs to be in position to assist the lead.

Most of you are saying that the "BIG O" was not hustling. Only I know how fast I was going, only I can answer it. "HUSTLING" I'm not talking about an all out sprint. Do any of you sprint 100%? Give all that you have? I've been told to NEVER run as fast as you can in reffing.... I personaly get this out of control viewing in vission, if in full 100% speed. Any one relate to this type of speed? Kind of like a hydro boat? My opinion, a ref shoundn't run full speed, ever.

Now, I'm no Carl Lewis, but I know not too many of you would of been out in front of me on this turn around, even at my "HUSTLE" speed. I was in no way lagging behind, I'm very fast if I need to be, really fast if I have my OC patent leather shoes on, even with a flat tire & while eatting donuts..... but I was checking on those other 7 players, glancing at the layup, & telling myself to never make a AT&T call.......

Final suggestions - " NO CALL" ? OR AT&T CALL? Let's hear from everyone.

Sigh.

No, actually, that's you. The only question asked in the original post was whether a call should be made from a long way away, even if the official was not sure of the call.

NO CALL- Stay away from it. Youd have to be able to see it from 15,000ft in the fog to call something that far away

I think, actually most of us agree you shouldn't make that call. You weren't 100% sure, and you would've had to guess on which player to call it on.

Btw, keep up the good work, and stay away from those donuts. ;)

My answer was no,BUT that official should never find himself 70 feet from it.

Try to keep up.:rolleyes:

No, actually what you said was:

How far would a new trail (old lead) official get, realistically, if a pass is picked off at midcourt and taken in for a layup. Consider (and I recognize that this isn't exactly what happened on the play in question):

(1) The old lead was on the baseline
(2) The steal was out of the old lead's primary

and the player stealing the ball was probably at or near the three point line before the new trail got completely ON THE COURT. That official's nort going to get terribly far even IF he/she runs like a jackrabbit. That's why you can manage to officiate with 2, but you're not always going to get the backside help you'd like.

I've answered it several times, it's not my fault you are too dense to grasp it.

I see you have trouble keeping up on both the forum and the court.:rolleyes:

The day I can't cover more than 15 feet when a player has to go 50, is the day I hang it up.

The play as described was that A1 and the official in question started around 15 feet or so apart, so even with stopping and changing direction factored in, how did 15 feet become 70?

I know my answer and it isn't worrying about the other 7 players, who all mysteriously decided to not run back down court.;)

There are many times when I really wish I could see some people on this forum work. You are really stuck on this theory that Big O wasn't hustling. Your comments give me some idea about you running around just to be in the same area as the ball even if it means you run by the majority of the players.

Yesterday I say 7 players stay back when three were on the other end. This was in a D2 game, so it does happen. It is normally called a fast break. The other players think the play is going to be over before they can get down there. It happened Friday too in a high school game. Maybe someone has experience but they don't have enough experience. :D

The day I think that my movement, at any position, should be controlled by where the ball goes, is the day I should hang them up. What kind of logic is involved when someone says you should go more than distance B when the ball has to go distance A? Then you have the nerve to say you aren't talking about ball watching? Maybe you got that by somebody, but you didn't get it past me!

[Edited by tomegun on Dec 19th, 2005 at 05:19 AM]

Big O wasn't hustling.

Go back and read each of his posts.

Something new gets added as an excuse each and every time, it's smelled fishy from the start, IMO.

I too would love to see some of you work too, because I damn well know that what you are saying you do and what you do in actual 2 person games is different.

So it is impossible to run open to the floor?

It is not possible to move and keep players within your field of vision?

It is harder than planting roots and watching the backsides of 7 players running the other way and leaving your partner alone, but not impossible.:rolleyes:

Against my better judgement, here goes:

bz, you've posted 14 replies to this particular thread. Of the 14, 12 have put another official down in some manner by implying or calling them lazy, not able to keep up (mentally or physically), not hustling, lying, etc. I would guess that you have not met or seen any of these officials, but yet you're more than willing to put them down. I can't speak for you in particular, but I do know that is not a good quality for an official who wants to move up. Constantly putting other people down might feel good initially, but it does not help in the long run. I know from watching this happen to other officials as they do not advance. I hope this is not a quality you possess in everyday life.

The original question that was asked, essentially, "I was a long way away from a play, should I have called it?" You did not answer that specific question until your post #11. You did pose some questions of your own, and answered them prior to that, but not the original question until pressed. You also did not answer any of the questions posed to you, and kept going back only to the point you wanted to make. Communication is a two-way street, and it is extremely important as you advance as an official. A theme that is brought up many times in different camps that I've attended is the thing that separates the good official from the great official is not the calls on the court, but how they handle people. This includes not only the players and coaches, but AD's, other officials, supervisors and assigners. I have seen many good "floor" officials not advance because their people skills were lacking in some form.

You have also made some comments that show a lack of some principles of 2-person mechanics. Maybe this is more a result of your communication rather than an actual lack of knowledge. But, when you make the comment, "It's not the trail's job to stay back and watch the other 7 players", you are dead wrong in that statement. It absolutely is the trail's job. Granted, in most games, nothing will ever happen with those 7 players. But, it is that "once every 5 years" incident that could keep you from advancing. In fact, if that were to happen in a higher-level game (NCAA), you would most likely lose your schedule and your position in the conference if something were to happen with players that you've left behind you. And don't tell me that you don't need to know 2-person mechanics in an NCAA game, because I saw a D-3 game officiated that way just last week when one of the officials didn't make it in due to weather. You did start to back-track a little in your last post when you mentioned opening up to the players. But, the further up court you move, you cannot watch those players AND watch the play in front of your partner, unless you were trailing the play, to be able to see both within your field of vision.

I've learned over time in camps to never argue with a clinician, even if they're dead wrong. The idea is to take the information given and decide whether it is useful in your game, or not. The same with information given here; much is useful, some is crappy. I'm also not naive enough to know that the same is true with information I hand out. But imo, learning the right way to communicate will go a long way in your officiating career. Take it for what it's worth.

Yep, as soon as I call a game and communicate with a key board during this game I'm in big trouble.

Let's take a really good look at this re-read the the first post. How much info other than we had a rookie ref and a vet that found himself 70 feet from the play?

Not much, so I said perhaps if the vet did not allow himself to be 70 feet away, his entire question would not need to be asked.

To which the usual smart arse, throws his 2 cents in, trying to be funny...emphasis on trying.

Other's including yourself picked up on this attempt at humor and started making absolute statements based on incomplete information...you know just what you are accusing me of doing.

I respond, and after a few posts, Big O picks up the 7 players as his excuse, and then begins adding to the original situation. Unfortunately what he adds, further strengthens my opinion that he allowed himself to stay back instead of working to be in a position to help his partner.

The theory of officiating and the practice of it often differ, ESPECIALLY when it is 2 person.

We constantly have to decide where we need to be, what court areas might need to be uncovered to call the play. Sorry but 3 players and the ball starting right in front of me in the backcourt and moving down my side line is going to get some of my attention.

I also need to repeat that this play started below the arch on new leads side with the steal during a break. Common sense tells me that if that is the case, some players will be trailing this play before the steal, so are we to believe that these players just continued up court and then stopped and made no attempt to even jog back the other way, when A1 had 70 feet to travel for the lay up?

Nope, not buying it.

I'm always going to get to where I judge I need to be for the best of the game, and sometimes that means players will be behind me.

Now how about answering my question?

What number of players need to be in the FC on this play before you move to the FC?

You got that right, M. Let that be a lesson to you.

Waste of time.

Well, it's like the old saying about beating your head against a wall - it feels soooo good when you stop. So I guess I'll stop.

I've scanned the thread from start to finish, and still don't really know, for sure....

Exactly how the play unfolded

How many players were where or when

And as often happens here, there's so much chest-thumping and wanting to be right, that six pages later, the OP is not really any closer to an answer than he was four days ago.

Merry Christmas.

Geeze, took ya long enough.

Holy sh*t, let's put this thing to rest........

Did I tell anyone that it's my birthday tomorrow, 42 years young......

Happy Holiday's everyone......

Have a Happy Birthday, O.

And a great Holiday to you and yours.

BIG O,
Look at the bottom of the page and find the open/close thread button.
It's your thread so you can close it and/or open it.
Happy Birthday.
mick