Question posed by NCAA official

[RookieDude]

Believe it or not...we have a NCAA official that used to be a member of our H.S. association, who now has moved on and done a few NCAA championship games. (Dick Cartmell)

A few of us H.S. officials met for some refreshments after our games last Friday night and ran into Mr. Cartmell.

Dick said that while he was at the Maui Classic...a question was posed to the officials...and he was wondering what we thought.

The question seemed simple enough, but we had some lively debate.

Question:
Team A scores...player B1 grabs the ball after the made basket and throws the ball to B2 before B1 goes OOB for the endline throw-in. Is this a "do-over" or a violation?

I said it would be a violation...Dick said that the officials at the tourney decided it would be a "do-over".

9.2.2 SITUATION C, covers NFHS ruling.

Is the NCAA ruling different?

BTW, I told him about this site...and said I would check on the ruling with the big dogs here. I'll see him next week, as I am part of a crew that will be doing his son's H.S. game.

[IREFU2]

It seems to me that B1 is still on the court and not out of bounds yet, so I dont see where the violation occurred. Maybe I am missing something.

[bob jenkins]

Yes -- we've had very spirited debates over this question in the past. Some said, "wait 5 seconds, then have a violation." Some said, "immediate violation." Some said, "Do over." (For the record, I was one of those in the latter camp.)

FED finally answered it for us a copule of years ago -- in the case play posted above.

NCAA hasn't answered it yet.

All the above answers are supportable, none are definite in NCAA. I think there are too many problems with the first one (wait 5 seconds) -- too much can happen. I would support either of the second two.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Yes -- we've had very spirited debates over this question in the past. Some said, "wait 5 seconds, then have a violation." Some said, "immediate violation." Some said, "Do over." (For the record, I was one of those in the latter camp.)

FED finally answered it for us a copule of years ago -- in the case play posted above.

NCAA hasn't answered it yet.

All the above answers are supportable, none are definite in NCAA. I think there are too many problems with the first one (wait 5 seconds) -- too much can happen. I would support either of the second two.

Good points Bob...(and me thinks you are in good company with the "do-overs")
another point might be, what would an official do if a player picked up the ball at any dead ball period during the game and "heaved" it to a teammate? (Of course, after a basket the clock is still running.) Maybe the "do-over" camp is thinking along those lines....or like a delay of game warning?

[jritchie]

you see this a lot of a team that fast breaks a lot, the player A1 will grab the ball and be headed out of bounds and before that foot touches the ground he passes it in to A2 to start the break, then lands out of bounds after the pass!!!! I look at it like this, if Team B is not pressing and A1 actually did get oob a split second after they let the ball go, i can let it go!!! But if Team B is trying to press it puts them at a dis-advantage and then you have to go with the "Do-0ver" or a violation! I would have to say violation, imo!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Believe it or not...we have a NCAA official that used to be a member of our H.S. association, who now has moved on and done a few NCAA championship games. (Dick Cartmell)

A few of us H.S. officials met for some refreshments after our games last Friday night and ran into Mr. Cartmell.

Dick said that while he was at the Maui Classic...a question was posed to the officials...and he was wondering what we thought.

The question seemed simple enough, but we had some lively debate.

Question:
Team A scores...player B1 grabs the ball after the made basket and throws the ball to B2 before B1 goes OOB for the endline throw-in. Is this a "do-over" or a violation?

I said it would be a violation...Dick said that the officials at the tourney decided it would be a "do-over".

9.2.2 SITUATION C, covers NFHS ruling.

Is the NCAA ruling different?

BTW, I told him about this site...and said I would check on the ruling with the big dogs here. I'll see him next week, as I am part of a crew that will be doing his son's H.S. game.

It would definitely depend on the level and flow of the game. In any middle school game, except a travelling team regional championship, it would be a do-over. Above that, I've got a judgment call.

But if Cartmell were to personally ask me (yea, like that's ever gonna happen!!), I'd say, "Hm, Let me see. Did anyone talk about junior high?" and then listen to other people's opinions about hs and NCAA. In that crowd, I'm still a learner.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jritchie
you see this a lot of a team that fast breaks a lot, the player A1 will grab the ball and be headed out of bounds and before that foot touches the ground he passes it in to A2 to start the break, then lands out of bounds after the pass!!!! I look at it like this, if Team B is not pressing and A1 actually did get oob a split second after they let the ball go, i can let it go!!! But if Team B is trying to press it puts them at a dis-advantage and then you have to go with the "Do-0ver" or a violation! I would have to say violation, imo!

Why would you let it go? Both plays are exactly the same - no matter what the defense is doing. A1 is gaining an advantage on the fast break also in both cases by getting the ball in quicker. At worst, team A is getting the ball into their front court before team B has a chance to set up their D.

You're talking about an obvious pass in-bounds in your play above. In the original play, there was some doubt as to whether it was a in-bounds pass or a hand-off to a player going OOB to make an in-bounds pass. There isn't that doubt in your scenario above.

It's an obvious violation in your play, and the team is benefiting from that violation. It's also being inconsistent in not making the same call on the same play. You gotta call the violation on that one imo.

Btw, there is no way you could ever justify a "Do-Over" on a committed violation like this one. You'd get crucified for that one.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 13th, 2005 at 04:52 AM]

[Lotto]

Originally posted by RookieDude
9.2.2 SITUATION C, covers NFHS ruling.

What is the NFHS ruling in this case? (We use NCAA rules here in NY, so I don't own a Fed rulebook.)

Funny that this should come up just now. I just had this play last night in a JV game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Lotto

What is the NFHS ruling in this case? (We use NCAA rules here in NY, so I don't own a Fed rulebook.)

Funny that this should come up just now. I just had this play last night in a JV game.

NFHS says immediate violation.