4 on 5

[Largent]

This is my first post though I've been reading the forum for a few years now and have really enjoyed many of the discussions. Situation last night that I am hoping to get feedback on. I think I know the answer. On a deadball, we had several substitutions. The ball was inbounded, I was new lead and my partner was trail. As the ball crossed halfcourt, my partner stopped the game because someone at the table told him that home team only had 4 players in the game. My partner blew the whistle and summoned me over. We realized that the home team did, in fact, only have 4 in the game. We discussed it and my partner told me that he thought that it was legal. I used to think that but somewhere along the way, either from reading the rule book or from what other officials told me, I thought that it was illegal if a team had 5 eligible to play (and I know Coach Dale did it in the movie Hoosiers, "My team is on the floor". Anyway, as the referee, I decided to assess a bench technical and take away the home team coach's privilege to stand. Needless to say, he was not happy. I, now think after some thought and discussion after the game, think that the act of having four in the game is legal. I am very mad at myself for screwing it up. Any thoughts? Also, any suggestions on what to do if you aren't sure of a rule? Thanks.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Largent
This is my first post though I've been reading the forum for a few years now and have really enjoyed many of the discussions. Situation last night that I am hoping to get feedback on. I think I know the answer. On a deadball, we had several substitutions. The ball was inbounded, I was new lead and my partner was trail. As the ball crossed halfcourt, my partner stopped the game because someone at the table told him that home team only had 4 players in the game. My partner blew the whistle and summoned me over. We realized that the home team did, in fact, only have 4 in the game. We discussed it and my partner told me that he thought that it was legal. I used to think that but somewhere along the way, either from reading the rule book or from what other officials told me, I thought that it was illegal if a team had 5 eligible to play (and I know Coach Dale did it in the movie Hoosiers, "My team is on the floor". Anyway, as the referee, I decided to assess a bench technical and take away the home team coach's privilege to stand. Needless to say, he was not happy. I, now think after some thought and discussion after the game, think that the act of having four in the game is legal. I am very mad at myself for screwing it up. Any thoughts? Also, any suggestions on what to do if you aren't sure of a rule? Thanks.

No T unless the 5th player comes onto the floor during play. At the next whistle (the one you blew to figure out what was going on) bring the 5th player back on.

[brianp134]

Originally posted by Largent
This is my first post though I've been reading the forum for a few years now and have really enjoyed many of the discussions. Situation last night that I am hoping to get feedback on. I think I know the answer. On a deadball, we had several substitutions. The ball was inbounded, I was new lead and my partner was trail. As the ball crossed halfcourt, my partner stopped the game because someone at the table told him that home team only had 4 players in the game. My partner blew the whistle and summoned me over. We realized that the home team did, in fact, only have 4 in the game. We discussed it and my partner told me that he thought that it was legal. I used to think that but somewhere along the way, either from reading the rule book or from what other officials told me, I thought that it was illegal if a team had 5 eligible to play (and I know Coach Dale did it in the movie Hoosiers, "My team is on the floor". Anyway, as the referee, I decided to assess a bench technical and take away the home team coach's privilege to stand. Needless to say, he was not happy. I, now think after some thought and discussion after the game, think that the act of having four in the game is legal. I am very mad at myself for screwing it up. Any thoughts? Also, any suggestions on what to do if you aren't sure of a rule? Thanks.

At least you realized you made a mistake, and I am sure that it will never happen to you again.

[Ed Maeder]

Have gone over this with some of our officials and the first thing that needs to be dealt with is to make sure you don't in-bound the ball with too many or not enough players. After several substitutions make sure you count extra careful to not get into these situations. That being said there is no rule that says this is a tech but there is no rule that says it isn't. Obviously the team that is playing with four is not gaining an advantage, but they are breaking the rule that states they must start the game with five and if they have no legal subs to replace disqualified or injured players they must continue with fewer than five. This is a good situation for something to be in the book to cover this. What if a team has legal subs but just decides not to use them but later on they decide to use them. I'm of the thought to give them a tech and then get the sub into the game and continue. I am also open to discussion in the other direction as Mr Rust has stated.

[refnrev]

Largent, IMO you need to work on these mistakes:

1. Count both teams before restarting play, but don't be overly obvious about it.
2. Review the T rule before your next game. No T warranted here. 6 players, yes, but not for 4.
3. Ask your partner why he stopped the game because of a comment from the table? This isn't necessarily a good practice to get into.

You made a mistake. So has everyone else on this board --plenty of times. That's how we get better.

[Largent]

Thanks for the advice. Clearly, the best thing to do would have been to ensure there were five players on the court. A lesson learned, that's for sure.

[eyezen]

I know some will claim preventative officiating however I pose the question is it our job to make sure the coach sends out the right number of players on the court?

In football the officials counts the players as well..however only because its illegal and will penalize accordingly if caught!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by eyezen
I know some will claim preventative officiating however I pose the question is it our job to make sure the coach sends out the right number of players on the court?

No, it's not our job under the rules. Having the right number of players out there is solely the coach's responsibility. However, if you don't wanna do middle school games for the rest of your life, it's probably a good idea not to let this happen too often. Really.

Evaluators kinda expect you to do this type of preventive officiating.

[eyezen]

I don't do middle school games so what are you insinuating?

And I never said that I didn't count players only that I posed the question if officials should (have to) and compared it to football.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally posted by refnrev
Largent, IMO you need to work on these mistakes:

1. Count both teams before restarting play, but don't be overly obvious about it.
2. Review the T rule before your next game. No T warranted here. 6 players, yes, but not for 4.
3. Ask your partner why he stopped the game because of a comment from the table? This isn't necessarily a good practice to get into.

You made a mistake. So has everyone else on this board --plenty of times. That's how we get better.

Rev,

What is your problem with being overly obvious about counting the players? At the Tech-Ga. game on Sunday, Burr and Valentine allowed a resumption of play with 6 players. They also prevented another one. You should have seen them counting from then on.

[Nevadaref]

I'm stunned at all the people here who have told you that playing with only 4 is legal. IT IS NOT!

Prior to this year it was a TEAM technical foul by 10-1-9 "Fail to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission."
(Not applicable to your situation unless it occurred following a TO or intermission.)

OR it was a PLAYER technical foul under 2004-2005 rule 10-3-3 "Leave the court for an unauthorized reason or delay returning after legally being out of bounds."

Since the player has not been substituted for leaving the court is not authorized.

This season 10-1-9 is the same, but 10-3-3 has been changed. Leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason has become a violation and is now located under 9-3-2.

2005-2006 rule 9-3-2 "A player shall not leave the floor for an unauthorized reason."

Since no substitute entered for the fifth player, that player is required to remain on the floor, and has committed a violation once the ball becomes live.

In summary, you would have been almost right last season (no indirect to the coach just charge the team), but this season you should only have had a violation on the team with only 4 on the floor unless it was following a time-out or intermission.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by eyezen
I don't do middle school games so what are you insinuating?

And I never said that I didn't count players only that I posed the question if officials should (have to) and compared it to football.

The middle school refence referred to officials who don't bother to count the players who return to the floor after a time-out. I did not intimate in any way that you were one of those officials.

You asked a question. I merely gave you my opinion as an answer.

Next time I won't.

Happy now?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Since the player has not been substituted for leaving the court is not authorized.

This season 10-1-9 is the same, but 10-3-3 has been changed. Leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason has become a violation and is now located under 9-3-2.

2005-2006 rule 9-3-2 "A player shall not leave the floor for an unauthorized reason."

Since no substitute entered for the fifth player, that player is required to remain on the floor, and has committed a violation once the ball becomes live.

That's not the purpose and intent of the new rule. The COMMENTS ON THE 2005-06 RULES REVISIONS at the back of this year's book sez about this rule --"leaving the court during the course of play has been increasing with the penalty of a technical foul not being assessed". What part of "during the course of play" don't you understand, Nevada.

You're trying to apply a rule that has got absolutely nothing to do with the situation being discussed. Apples and oranges.

[Nevadaref]

Ok, JR by the wording of the comment you have a point. If the actual leaving takes place during a dead ball the new rule is not a perfect fit.

However, player is still off the court during the course of play. What do you think should be done about it?
Can players just leave the floor as they please during a dead ball? I doubt that is within the spirit or intent of the change. This action used to be illegal and still has to be deemed such, the new wording only intended to change the penalty for leaving the floor, not make it legal.

I'll note that 10.3.3 Sit B is still in this year's case book.

I can think of a few other rules that might apply though:

a. the new 10-3-3: The player was OOB during the dead ball and now has delayed returning, so perhaps we really should T him.

b. 9-2-11 or 9-2-12 depending upon which team executes the throw-in to restart the game. (This obviously wouldn't apply if the game were restarted with the administration of a FT or jump ball.)

c. even 4-47-1 might apply if the opponents are making the throw-in.

The bottom line, which is obvious to me, is that the players, who are not executing a throw-in, are not supposed to leave the floor during a dead ball unless it is a time-out or intermission.

Otherwise we run into some major difficulties:
e.g.

1. What if the officials don't notice that the player is missing until the ball is live? They don't know exactly when he left.

2. Can players line up OOB prior to the administration of a FT and then run onto the court once the ball becomes live?
Or does this action fall under 10-3-7 (committing an unsporting foul)?

3. Can a player just leave the floor during any dead ball and then not even try to come back?

[Jurassic Referee]

Nevada, looking at this play, do you really think that the team that is going with 4 players is gaining any kind of advantage? All of the rules that you're trying to make fit were implemented to stop a team or player from gaining an unfair advantage. In this play, the team is actually putting themself at a major disadvantage. Why punish them twice? Why stop the other team from enjoying their 5 on 4 advantage either? Now, if the 5th. player does come back on during play, then that team is gaining an unfair advantage at that time and should be penalized for it.