Ponytails

BloggingRefGuy · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 03, 2005, 10:34pm

Folks,

I'd like your opinion on something. Last year, I had two games where players were complaining that their ponytails were being yanked by the opposition. I never caught it happening, which bums me out because I can't imagine a player making that up. Still, I wasn't alone...there was another, more notorious ponytail pull in our area involving an all-State player that was caught on videotape and aired on the local news...and that player wasn't caught by the refs either.

Anyway--I'm thinking ahead. What if I do catch it? Intentional foul? Flagrant?

What if it's two players in the post...and the defender gets fed up (for whatever reason) and gives it a yank?

What if it's a player who's beat on the screen, and, in a desperate effort to stop the play, reaches out and pulls on whatever he/she can find...and it happens to be hair?

What if it's a dead ball?

Do you call it different in a girls' game from a boys' game?

My inclination is to call it flagrant in all cases...there's no reason for this to happen. Seems the same as an attempt to kick an opponent, which is also an automatic exit.

But I'd like to hear from y'all, whether you agree or disagree. Thanks.

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 03, 2005, 10:54pm

At the very least, it has to be intentional. And it certainly could be flagrant. That's a choice you have to make based on what you see.

Jurassic Referee · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 03, 2005, 10:56pm

Intentional personal foul unless the official also felt that the hair pull was severe enough to cause an injury. In that case it would be a flagrant personal foul.

If it occurs during a dead ball, it's an intentional technical foul-- or, using the same logic as above, a flagrant technical foul.

No difference - men vs. women.

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 04, 2005, 01:00am

Better speed up old man.

Terrapins Fan · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 04, 2005, 09:38pm

What I am asking is, if you make it flagrant, the player loses the next 2 games where I am, could you speak to the coach and suggest to him/her to remove the plyer before the player get's removed?

refnrev · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 04, 2005, 11:45pm

You're going to have to make a judgement in each situation. It's at least an intentional and many times that's all there will be. But if you judge it to be severe enough you could make the case for a flagrant. I personally have never seen it happen.

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 05, 2005, 03:06am

Quote:

Originally posted by Terrapins Fan
What I am asking is, if you make it flagrant, the player loses the next 2 games where I am, could you speak to the coach and suggest to him/her to remove the player before the player get's removed?

If it's flagrant, you just call it as such. You never worry about 2-game suspensions or anything like that. A flagrant act is a flagrant act.

I just can't imagine a player committing a flagrant foul, and an official then refusing to call it as such because a suspension might be involved. If you want to make any suggestions to a coach about getting a player out of the game to cool him down, you'd better do it before that player commits a flagrant foul- not after.

refnrev · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 05, 2005, 09:39am

Quote:

Originally posted by Terrapins Fan
What I am asking is, if you make it flagrant, the player loses the next 2 games where I am, could you speak to the coach and suggest to him/her to remove the plyer before the player get's removed?

__________________________________________________ _____

Nope. If she's committed the foul it's a done deal. Report the foul and let your partner inform her coach if need be. I'm not a black/white guy by any means because much of the game is played in a tricky area of gray. But there's no plea-bargaining in basketball. If you see it call it and go on. You have no control over consequences of a foul. Your responsibility is to call the game according to the rules without bias and with impartiality. If you're worried about a suspension then you cease to be impartial and unbiased. The players are responsible for their actions on the court, not us.

Junker · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 05, 2005, 10:41am

I'd call it flagrant and dump her from the game. If you don't think its bad enough for an ejection, another option would be to call it a common foul (a hold) and let her and her coach know if it happens again, it will be considered flagrant and she will be ejected.

Back In The Saddle · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 05, 2005, 11:53am

To me, this fits the definition and definitely the spirit of an intentional foul. But I can't see myself calling this flagrant unless the hairpuller dragged the pullee to the ground or something really outrageous like that.

Pulling somebody's hair is way over the line. And if it were my hair being pulled, I'd be pissed as hell. By calling the intentional, you not only punish the act, but hopefully the pullee feels vindicated and we don't get into any retaliation.

As for worrying about whether a player gets suspended for a call you make, I think that's bogus thinking. It's the same mentality as saying refs shouldn't decide the game by calling fouls. The rules are fair and unbiased and form a contract between all the participants. They know which acts are legal and illegal and the penalties for committing illegal acts. If they break the rules, the official assesses the penalty everybody has agreed to.

BloggingRefGuy · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 06, 2005, 02:32am

I appreciate the input. I agree with most of you that it'll vary from situation to situation, and I respect all of your opinions. That said, my instinct is that it will usually be flagrant. We can't have that crap and let a kid stay in the game.

Refneck · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 09, 2005, 11:57am

Hypothetical question:

If B1 pulls A1's hair and A1 turns around and slugs B1, do you chunk them both? (Flagrant T - Fighting)

Jurassic Referee · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 09, 2005, 11:59am

Quote:

Originally posted by Refneck
Hypothetical question:

If B1 pulls A1's hair and A1 turns around and slugs B1, do you chunk them both? (Flagrant T - Fighting)

Yup....instigating and retaliating...good enough for me.

Ref Daddy · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 09, 2005, 01:39pm

Had a game last week - Dominant center for the Girls JV. She was a difference maker.

In Q 1 I sat her down for repeated Shirt Tail violations. 2 Warnings and out it came again.

Opposing coach got an idea. He ran a Box and 1 and chased Baby Shaq all 2nd half.

I noticed she was constantly retucking her jersey and I felt that my preventive officiating had really helped her.

On closer observation I noticed that it was her opponents were pulling her shirt-tail OUT!

Called intentional.