How about an old guy brain dump on closely guarded

[BktBallRef]

Yes, it is vague. On that, we can agree.

Good night.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
[/B]

I'm saying that the rule book says nothing about meeting the definition of LGP before a count begins. If I, as a defender, pick up a dribbler while moving and maintain 6' or less, he's closely guarded. It makes no difference whether I ever was facing him with both feet on the floor at the same time or not. I can pick him up on the run and still have a CG count started.

[/B][/QUOTE]Can't agree. See case book play 9.10.1SitC:

Team A has the ball in it's own frontcourt. B1 stands within 6 feet and facing A1 while A1 is holding the ball near the division line.
RULING: In 5 seconds this would be a violation. In the situation outlined, as soon as B1 has assumed a guarding position, both feet on the floor, facing the opponent, no other specific requirement is in effect. The amount of movement or the actual body position of the player is irrelevant.

LGP must be established by the defender before you can begin a count.

[BktBallRef]

I don't totally disagree with what you're saying. But prior to last season's POE, the NFHS never stated that LGP was required before a closely guarded count could begin. In the siutaiton that I described, I'm starting a count. So I'll just leave it at that.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
I don't totally disagree with what you're saying. But prior to last season's POE, the NFHS never stated that LGP was required before a closely guarded count could begin. In the siutaiton that I described, I'm starting a count. So I'll just leave it at that.

The case play JR posted was also in the 1998-99 CB, so last year WAS NOT the first time it was mentioned.

LGP is required to begin a count, so why not leave it at that, since it is the rule.

[IREFU2]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I'll give you NFHS cites. I think that the NCAA mens rules are similar, but I'm too lazy to look 'em up. NCAA Womens? I dunno.

1) To have a closely guarded count, the defender must first obtain a LGP as per R4-23-2. That LGP rule doesn't specify where you have to obtain it; iow, the defender can establish his LGP either in the front or backcourt. After establishing LGP, the defender can then establish and maintain a closely guarded position by staying within 6' of the player with the ball as per R4-23-1, and at the same time also meet the provisions of R4-23-3. There is no closely guarded count in the backcourt- as per R9-10-1a. If the defender established LGP in his opponent's backcourt and is also in a closely-guarded position on that opponent when the opponent enters the front court, then the 5-second count will start immediately. The case book play is 9.10.1SitA.

2) Rule sez 6 feet. Not many officials have a count at 6 feet though if the defender isn't aggressively defending- or trying to, I think. I think the purpose and intent of the rule is to reward a defender for playing defense, not just hanging around in front of the dribbler to kinda half-assedly keep him outside. The best way to call this one imo is to talk to your peers in your area, and try to have everybody call it uniformly.

3)The partner who starts the count should try and maintain it. It's harder than hell imo to figure out where the count is if you didn't start it. Quick look at your partner. If your partner keeps his count going, let him finish it. If your partner doesn't have a count, start your's if it's applicable.

Just one old guy's opinion.

NCAAW -

No 10 second backcourt count and you get a 5 second closely gaurded count on a held ball in the BC.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by IREFU2
NCAAW -

No 10 second backcourt count and you get a 5 second closely gaurded count on a held ball in the BC.

Plus the closely guarded distance in NCAAW is 3'

[IREFU2]

Yep, exactly!!!!! I wish they would change that across the board. 3 feet seems more reasonable than 6.

[Larks]

Originally posted by IREFU2
Yep, exactly!!!!! I wish they would change that across the board. 3 feet seems more reasonable than 6.

I like the 3' rule but I think it should be held and / or dribbling especially w/ no shot clock in place. I also think you should be able to run over to defend a player and not have to get LGP before a count starts. Would make things a lot easier on us because then the only decision is how close the defender is. Well, I guess you should still be facing at least.

[JCrow]

This is just theoretical.....ever see that Movie, "Stuck on You"? It's about conjoined twin brothers. In the movie, they are on the same baseball and hockey teams. What if they played basketball and were on opposite teams? It is possible. If brother A1 had the ball, could brother B1 ever get legal guarding position if he were attached to his side? And..if he were to get LGP, would the 5-second count start as soon as A1 touched the ball in the frontcourt? This would make for many messy situations? Think about Free Throw Violations, OOB plays and Player Control Fouls! Anything in the casebook about conjoined twins on opposite teams?

[ChuckElias]

How would conjoined twins attend separate schools?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
How would conjoined twins attend separate schools?

Carefully.

[JCrow]

That's a valid point, however, a Rec League situation is still a viable possibility.

[rainmaker]

When a dribbler comes into my area with a defender guarding within 6', it's easy to tell whether they're facing or not. THen all that needs to be determined is whether they ever had two feet on the ground at the same time. Usually, if they're sliding in the "Stay Low!!" bent knees position, I pretty much assume that at some point their feet were both touching at the same time. If the defender is just running alongside, it's a little harder to determine, but even then, I think if she is paying any attention to the dribbler at all, a count could be safely started.

The real question for me is how to determine 6'. Is it toe to toe? I've seen defenders that were tall enough that with a little bending forward, and arms reaching, they could be 6' plus away, and still be in excellent guarding position. Should I count or not?

[JCrow]

Luckily, an old Ref taught me this trick. The Maple Flooring is always 2-1/4" wide. So when you see that A1 and B1 are cross-grain...count the boards between them. 72"/2.25" = 32 boards or less. Granted you have to be careful in Nevada where the dry humidity can cause undue shrinkage in hardwoods.