Hey tomegun...

RookieDude · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 10:01am

Was watching a little of the UNC vs. VT basketball game, on ESPN last night, before I had to leave for my game.

Mike Patrick (ESPN Sunday Night Football) was the T.V. commentator.

Player A1 was dribbling right in front of the T, with player B1 guarding. A1 made a move to the basket, on the T's side of the semi-circle. A1 pushed B1 with his off hand. B1 went to the floor. The T had no call.
The C came in with a player control foul.

Mike Patrick said something like, "That's a foul, you gotta get that."
I've seen these plays with no call, maybe because A1 pushed and then backed away from the basket. The disadvantage was created when A1 pushed off...but then negated when he backed off from the push. (The C might have thought A1 created space...therefore could get a uncontested shot off...the T might have thought differently)

In light of a recent discussion here...I was just wondering if tomegun, or any official for that matter, would approve of C's call?

I'll Edit here for the time and score in the game:
There was just over 3 minutes left in a one point game.

[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 11th, 2006 at 10:10 AM]

ChuckElias · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 10:54am

Wow. That's a tough one, especially in that game sitch. The likelihood is that as the C, I'm probably not even looking at it, unless there is no screening or post play on my side of the court. It's on the far side of the FT circle.

I can't give a definitive answer on this one. If it's an obvious foul and the T was straight-lined and there's nothing going on in my primary. . .

Maybe. That's the best answer I can give.

tomegun · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 11:21am

I'm blushing. Thank you for thinking of me.

First of all, I would have to see this call like Chuck said.
Second, the crew on this game was strong = they can do things we can't in a game because they who they are.

Picturing this play in my head, the distance the C went outside his area is roughly have the width of the paint. The other situation was about 10 times that far.

What did the T do when the drive started? He has very little time to step left or right. The T could have stepped to the right and the push off was with the left hand.

If the T didn't move correctly he could have been stacked and either not seen the push or not seen how much it effected the defender.

Can you tell us where the other 8 players were located and what the C's matchups were? Was the C's whistle slightly delayed?

I think this play is 1/10 the distance of the other call, which makes a big difference. I think this situation would be similar to what would have happened if the T had made the call in the other thread.

Raymond · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 11, 2006, 04:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun

First of all, I would have to see this call like Chuck said.
Second, the crew on this game was strong = they can do things we can't in a game because they who they are.

Yep, you're right, 3 Final Four officials to be exact.

Since I ran into TOMEGUN and his crew this weekend I was going to start a thread about calling across the paint as the lead. Then I said

"wait, we can search the forum now for similar threads" and look what I found.

Don't have time to complete my thoughts right now, I'll re-engage when I get home.

zebraman · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 11, 2006, 05:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yep, you're right, 3 Final Four officials to be exact.

Since I ran into TOMEGUN and his crew this weekend I was going to start a thread about calling across the paint as the lead. Then I said

"wait, we can search the forum now for similar threads" and look what I found.

Don't have time to complete my thoughts right now, I'll re-engage when I get home.

It would have been interesting to hear the conversation between the two of them after the game. I wonder if the C said, "hey, sorry about that call in your area. I temporarily got caught ball-watching." Nobody is perfect. If they were all final four refs, I don't think that the T needed the C's help.

If there were matchups in the C's area, he shouldn't have been watching the T's area.

Nobody is perfect. Without seeing the play, it sounds like the C reached.

Z

tomegun · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 11, 2006, 07:45pm

I will engage a little where BNR left. We went to Outback after our games on Saturday. One of my friends picked up the tab because of a bet we made: the first one to call across the paint buys dinner.
The play that got him was on the baseline. It started in the corner and I was the C. The player got grabbed (slightly), played through it and was on his way to the hoop. "Tweet" I'm looking around like, "What the..." He kept saying he was on the move - to rotate - and wasn't going to pay. Thanks to Hoopstv.com we looked at the play up in the stands between games. He is about 6'3" and made the call less than half of one of his steps into the paint.
He finally admitted he was wrong and paid.

"You ain't getting none of my check so you might as well let me work!"

Disclaimer: This is one of my friends so this "confrontation" was all in fun.

Raymond · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 11, 2006, 08:36pm

OK, back to what I wanted to discuss.

Though no one said anything about it, I made a call from the lead across the paint in one of my games this weekend (3-man). The ball had swung from the strong side to weak side slightly below free throw line extended. I immediately closed down. Before I had a chance to go ahead and rotate, A1 started penetrating to his right towards the baseline and the basket. The defender B1 has his chest against A1's left shoulder and arm with no space in between and was ever so slightly trailing A1. He then puts his left hand into A1's midsection causing A1 to slow down and forcing him to loop more towards the sideline. I didn't think there was anyway for the C to see the hand-check based on his angle behind the players.

I think I know Tomegun's answer but what do others think?

A. Go ahead and rotate even though A1 was already penetrating to the basket and then come with the whistle.

B. Pass on the foul and let the play continue on to the basket.

C. Call the hand-check even though I was calling from across the paint.

BTW, I didn't start this thread so I can't start a poll...but I'm really not looking for A/B/C answers, rather I'm looking for the reasoning behind why you would do what you would do.

And oh yeah, the UNC-VA Tech game in question was officiated by Tony Greene, Ed Corbett, and Ted Valentine (or was it Ed Hightower?, I get them confused

)

rainmaker · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 11:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
Player A1 was dribbling right in front of the T, with player B1 guarding. A1 made a move to the basket, on the T's side of the semi-circle. A1 pushed B1 with his off hand. B1 went to the floor. The T had no call.
The C came in with a player control foul.

Mike Patrick said something like, "That's a foul, you gotta get that."
I've seen these plays with no call, maybe because A1 pushed and then backed away from the basket. The disadvantage was created when A1 pushed off...but then negated when he backed off from the push. (The C might have thought A1 created space...therefore could get a uncontested shot off...the T might have thought differently)

Could T have thought it was a flop?

RookieDude · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 01:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Could T have thought it was a flop?

No...I don't think so rainmaker...see below.

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
If it's an obvious foul and the T was straight-lined

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
If the T didn't move correctly he could have been stacked and either not seen the push or not seen how much it effected the defender.

Yep...you both hit it on the head...that's exactly what happened, from what I could see. The T got straight-lined and, in fact, froze for a split second. He even bent at the knees to try and get an angle...but was to late.

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
Was the C's whistle slightly delayed?

Yes

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
Can you tell us where the other 8 players were located and what the C's matchups were?

The other 8 players were basically in and around the key below the FT line. If I can picture it correctly, there were 4 players on C's side...with the post and other players on the strong side.

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
[/B]the distance the C went outside his area is roughly have the width of the paint.[/B]

Yehbut...the C WAS outside his area.
I think you softened on your hard lined stance of staying in your area toward the end of the last thread. Maybe you were just trying to make a point to the newer officials about staying the heck out of your partner's area and trusting said partners.
I think we can all agree your philosophy/mechanics are sound...BUT, IMO, there are exceptions.

Here was one example.

Camron Rust · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 11:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
I
Picturing this play in my head, the distance the C went outside his area is roughly have the width of the paint. The other situation was about 10 times that far.

...

I think this play is 1/10 the distance of the other call, which makes a big difference. I think this situation would be similar to what would have happened if the T had made the call in the other thread.

A little exaggeration sure makes a point more believable.

The paint is 12 feet wide. If the other situation had the ref calling it from 10 times that far, he have to be making a baseline call from the 10th row of the bleachers on the other end of the court!!!

That said, it is different and much more acceptable.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jan 11th, 2006 at 11:43 PM]