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refTN Mon Nov 14, 2005 09:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by MPLAHE
Varsity girls scrimmage the other night. Had three illegal screen calls in the first quarter on the home team which had the coach a bit upset since he was obviously teaching this technique. As girls would move laterally in the front court, one of his girls would jumpstop in front of the moving defender. On occasion, the defender was able to avoid the screen, but in most cases the defender could not and would crash into the offensive player. I know this is a judgement call and can be a tough one to make, but in my opinion, the offensive player was not allowing the defender enough distance (1-2 steps/strides) to avoid the contact. Anyone else see this coaching teachnique in the girls game?

BTW, it stopped by the second quarter and the coach wanted to know why I wasn't allowing his kids to set picks. I told him if set properly, they can set all the picks they want, but these were not legal and better that they learn it now then during the season.

MPLAHE,
From what you wrote I have no foul here at all. the girl can jumpstop all day for all I care right before the girl hits her and this not be illegal. When a screener is in the visual parameters of the screenee, time and distance do not matter. I believe the rulebook says anything short of contact. I would say that this is just my opinion but it's not, it's the NFHS's, NCAA's, and NBA's.

For what it's worth I don't like to see kids get hurt because of stuff like this, but it happens. I'll give you two examples:

1) Kings and Mavericks at dallas: bibby taking the ball up the floor with the dallas rookie pg putting pressure on him in the backcourt. bibby starts to accelerate. right about that time the center for the kings turns around just in time and gets a firm position, the kid hits the center and is knocked out cold. danny crawford, the referee, deemed this to be legal contact. The kid who got screened had a concussion.

2)YBOA state tournament 9 and under:
Little girls falling down everywhere and parents getting upset of course, nothing illegal happening(working with a college official by the way)With about 5 seconds left in the game almost the same as above happened except the whole team was in a press, and the little girl went down and the coach/mom came onto the court with no whistle being sounded and just started to berate me, so I T her up calmly and told her to attend to the child, then all of sudden the asst. coach/dad comes onto the floor hootin and hollerin, and my partner comes from behind and had to toss him out of the gym.

All that just to reiterate what somebody said earlier, we are not out there to keep people from getting hurt, we are out there to call it by the rules, and from what it sounds like you know those pretty well and are confident in your skills, but you are like me when I first started reffing, you think if someone gets hurt it is your fault cause you didn't catch something sooner. Yes coaches and parents will blame you for it most of the time, but that comes with making the "big bucks". keep working hard to get those plays right.

tip: whether you are in two or three man crew, if you can get to the topside of these screens especially in pick n' roll plays it is like a whole new world.

Jurassic Referee Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:07am

Quote:

Originally posted by refTN
Quote:

Originally posted by MPLAHE
Varsity girls scrimmage the other night. Had three illegal screen calls in the first quarter on the home team which had the coach a bit upset since he was obviously teaching this technique. As girls would move laterally in the front court, one of his girls would jumpstop in front of the <font color = red>moving defender</font>. On occasion, the defender was able to avoid the screen, but in most cases the defender could not and would crash into the offensive player. I know this is a judgement call and can be a tough one to make, but in my opinion, the offensive player was not allowing the defender enough distance (1-2 steps/strides) to avoid the contact. Anyone else see this coaching teachnique in the girls game?

BTW, it stopped by the second quarter and the coach wanted to know why I wasn't allowing his kids to set picks. I told him if set properly, they can set all the picks they want, but these were not legal and better that they learn it now then during the season.

MPLAHE,
From what you wrote I have no foul here at all. the girl can jumpstop all day for all I care right before the girl hits her and this not be illegal. <font color = red>When a screener is in the visual parameters of the screenee, time and distance do not matter. I believe the rulebook says anything short of contact. I would say that this is just my opinion but it's not, it's the NFHS's, NCAA's, and NBA's.</font>


Absolutely, totally and completely wrong.

The screening concept that you are trying to use applies only to a <b>stationary</b> opponent. Time and distance apply to screens set on a <b>moving</b> opponent. Different rules for different situations.

It might be a good idea to read and learn NFHS rule 10-6-3. Might keep you outa trouble some day.

Don't pontificate unless you really know what you're doing. It kinda makes you look a l'il silly when you're so badly wrong.

SeanFitzRef Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:32am

Had a varsity girls scrimmage the other night, and a similar play happened. A1 dribbling down the sideline in front of B's bench just across halfcourt, B1 defending and running along side A1. I see A2 in my field of vision come running up from the baseline to set a screen on B1. She jumpstops at the top of the key extended and waits for B1, and as A1 dribbles past the screen B1 gets totally wiped out. B's bench jumps up screaming for an illegal screen, but everything was legal. B1 took two steps before contact, A2 was set w/out high elbows or leaning. Just a tooth-rattling screen set legally. I saw it coming and knew there was a possibility for injury, but can't stop the game to say "Hey, WATCH OUT!!!" I would forfeit my stripes for life!

Just ref the rules, can't ref the potential for injury on every play. Preventative officiating goes a long way towards cleaning this up, but you can't protect or prevent evry injury from occuring.

Dan_ref Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:46am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Absolutely, totally and completely wrong.

The screening concept that you are trying to use applies only to a <b>stationary</b> opponent. Time and distance apply to screens set on a <b>moving</b> opponent. Different rules for different situations.

It might be a good idea to read and learn NFHS rule 10-6-3. Might keep you outa trouble some day.

Don't pontificate unless you really know what you're doing. It kinda makes you look a l'il silly when you're so badly wrong.

NCAA 10-22-3 for your (...wait for it) SEC games.

How's the wheel btw?

JRutledge Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Reproduced directly and accurately from the 2001-02 <b>RULE BOOK</b>:

POE #4C-.Screens
.<b>Moving screens</b>
1. The screener must be stationary upon contact.
2. It is not a <b>moving screen</b> unless there is contact.

'Nuff said.

Nuff said? Where does it say that the term or definition of a moving screen is illegal? Can you give a rule reference (actually in the rulebook) that uses the term "moving screen" as an illegal act? When I talk to a coach about this, I cannot tell that coach to go back almost 5 years ago and read what that rulebook said. He is going to want to be able to look up this year. Not that a coach is ever going to pick up a rulebook. I cannot show a newer official that reference either. They are not going to have that reference.

Once again, a screen can be moving and be completely legal. I personally do not like the term or accept the terminology as properly being used. If you want to use the term “moving screen” that is your prerogative to do so. Around here, it is not an accepted term because it is not a term the rulebook uses except for that POE. And when that POE came out, there was debate if they should have used the term at all. They also made it clear that all there principles of incidental contact still applied and you had to have the proper time and distance as stated in the rulebook.

Peace

JRutledge Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman


Maybe it's a regional thing. Rut's area might not acknowledge "moving screens." They may also have an assignor who won't give them games if they wear belted pants or use the term "moving screens." :D

Z

I know my share of officials that wear belted pants and work games. They just do not seem to be the same officials that work a lot of playoffs or the best games. Not sure why that it, but it seems to be a trend that wearing a belt is an outdated trend.

In many official's opinions, you look like a clown wearing a belt on your pants. No differnet if you wear a collared shirt. Get with the times already.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Nov 14th, 2005 at 11:38 AM]

David B Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:15am

Often its taught also
 
Quote:

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
Had a varsity girls scrimmage the other night, and a similar play happened. A1 dribbling down the sideline in front of B's bench just across halfcourt, B1 defending and running along side A1. I see A2 in my field of vision come running up from the baseline to set a screen on B1. She jumpstops at the top of the key extended and waits for B1, and as A1 dribbles past the screen B1 gets totally wiped out. B's bench jumps up screaming for an illegal screen, but everything was legal. B1 took two steps before contact, A2 was set w/out high elbows or leaning. Just a tooth-rattling screen set legally. I saw it coming and knew there was a possibility for injury, but can't stop the game to say "Hey, WATCH OUT!!!" I would forfeit my stripes for life!

Just ref the rules, can't ref the potential for injury on every play. Preventative officiating goes a long way towards cleaning this up, but you can't protect or prevent evry injury from occuring.

Good point about contact. In our game the other night it was obvious that the coach had taught his defenders to "run through the screens" instead of the more correct way of moving over the screens etc, or switching.

Several times his girls got decked and the coach could not understand why we were letting them set so many illegal screens on his players.

Finally I simply told the coach, if your players want to run into the picks thats fine, but I'm not going to penalize the player that is setting a legal pick.

Now, later we had a couple of illegal screens that we did call and of course the coach let us know "about time you call that" - sigh!

Thanks
David


Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:42am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Only if there was illegal contract...

MTD, Sr.

These are high school kids. Almost all of them are under 18; so there would be many illegal contracts. :)


Oh my, I shouldn't let my fingers drive the typewriter when they are sober, LOL.

MTD, Sr.

Jurassic Referee Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:56am

Re: Often its taught also
 
Quote:

Originally posted by David B
[/B]
Good point about contact. In our game the other night <font color = red>it was obvious that the coach had taught his defenders to "run through the screens" instead of the more correct way of moving over the screens etc, or switching</font>.

Finally I simply told the coach, if your players want to run into the picks thats fine, but <font color = red>I'm not going to penalize the player that is setting a legal pick.</font>




[/B][/QUOTE]No, but you shoulda been penalizing the player(s) that were running through the screens. That's an automatic foul. Any player who is screened in their visual field is supposed to at least make an attempt to run around the screen. They can't just go ahead and plow into the screener.

Rule 4-27-4. There's a case play or POE somewhere on this one too.

Went and looked for a reference:

NFHS 2002-03 Rule book:
<b>POE 3C</b>
MOVING SCREENS:
- The screener must be stationary on contact.
- It is not a moving screen unless there is contact.
- The screened player is expected to stop or attempt to stop on contact and move around the screen.
- Excessive contact or <B>"pushing through the screen"</B> is illegal

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 14th, 2005 at 12:05 PM]

ThickSkin Mon Nov 14, 2005 01:25pm

Moving screens are the best plays in basketball! If I was a coach, I would teach my team the art of the moving screen! I moving screen is legal until there is contact. Then it becomes an illegal screen!

If the defender moves around the screener while the screener is moving, I have nothing!

BktBallRef Mon Nov 14, 2005 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MPLAHE
I hear what you are saying and I agree - I guess I wasn't making my point clear. The calls I am referring to ARE in fact illegal contact and should be called to prevent futute unnecessary contact. I have seen some games get out of hand because officials are either unwilling or are ball watching and miss these type of fouls. That is the prevention I am referring to.
You made it perfectly clear. NV simply chose to take your statement out of the context in which you wrote it.

Don't worry about it, you're on target.

JRutledge Mon Nov 14, 2005 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ThickSkin
Moving screens are the best plays in basketball! If I was a coach, I would teach my team the art of the moving screen! I moving screen is legal until there is contact. Then it becomes an illegal screen!

If the defender moves around the screener while the screener is moving, I have nothing!

That is not necessarily true either. There must be contact that is not ruled incidental. All contact is not a foul. If a defender or screener never tries to "fight thru the screen," or gives up on the position, I am likely not calling a foul. Incidental contact still applies whether a screen is moving or not.

Peace

BktBallRef Mon Nov 14, 2005 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Can you give a rule reference (actually in the rulebook) that uses the term "moving screen" as an illegal act?
Can you give a rule reference that says displacement has to occur?

No, you cannot.

JRutledge Mon Nov 14, 2005 02:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Can you give a rule reference (actually in the rulebook) that uses the term "moving screen" as an illegal act?
Can you give a rule reference that says displacement has to occur?

No, you cannot.

Rule 10-6 says:

In cases with the screener and id the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact or moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball.

Rule 4-27-1 also says:

The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain to occur.


Rule 4-27-3 always says:

Similarly, contact which does not hinder normal the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.

Peace

refTN Mon Nov 14, 2005 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by refTN
Quote:

Originally posted by MPLAHE
Varsity girls scrimmage the other night. Had three illegal screen calls in the first quarter on the home team which had the coach a bit upset since he was obviously teaching this technique. As girls would move laterally in the front court, one of his girls would jumpstop in front of the <font color = red>moving defender</font>. On occasion, the defender was able to avoid the screen, but in most cases the defender could not and would crash into the offensive player. I know this is a judgement call and can be a tough one to make, but in my opinion, the offensive player was not allowing the defender enough distance (1-2 steps/strides) to avoid the contact. Anyone else see this coaching teachnique in the girls game?

BTW, it stopped by the second quarter and the coach wanted to know why I wasn't allowing his kids to set picks. I told him if set properly, they can set all the picks they want, but these were not legal and better that they learn it now then during the season.

MPLAHE,
From what you wrote I have no foul here at all. the girl can jumpstop all day for all I care right before the girl hits her and this not be illegal. <font color = red>When a screener is in the visual parameters of the screenee, time and distance do not matter. I believe the rulebook says anything short of contact. I would say that this is just my opinion but it's not, it's the NFHS's, NCAA's, and NBA's.</font>


Absolutely, totally and completely wrong.

The screening concept that you are trying to use applies only to a <b>stationary</b> opponent. Time and distance apply to screens set on a <b>moving</b> opponent. Different rules for different situations.

It might be a good idea to read and learn NFHS rule 10-6-3. Might keep you outa trouble some day.

Don't pontificate unless you really know what you're doing. It kinda makes you look a l'il silly when you're so badly wrong.

My bad, totally and utterly wrong. I know it when I see it just wrote it wrong. while I was writing this I was picturing a pick n roll play which in most cases is a stationary defender.


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